[Chrysostom]

(JerryLove) Again you try to force the issue to "how many soldiers were there". I don't care. The question is "what did Joab say to David".

We have two conflicting statements, in quotes, as being said by Joab. Joab did not, in fact, say one of them...

(Me) I've answered this: "It was never a requirement to reproduce the exact words. The requirement is to reproduce the content of those words. The two accounts accurately reproduce the actual message conveyed."



(JerryLove) how many other quotes from the Bible are not what was actually said by the quoted party?

(Me) I doubt that most of the accounts in the Bible record what was said verbatim. I am certain that they all accurately reproduce what was said.

[JerryLove]

I doubt that most of the accounts in the Bible record what was said verbatim. I am certain that they all accurately reproduce what was said.

So where the Bible says he said "we have 800k men", he really said "we have 1.11m men" and the Bible is accurate in saying "he said how many men he had".

So back to what that means... when God said "it will rain for 40 days and nights", maybe he said "it will rain from 45 days and nights", but it's only important "he told Noah how many days it would rain".

Similarly, if the text is not correct (conveying only correct intent), then how much of the rest of the Biblie is similarly inaccurate?

[Chrysostom]

(JerryLove) So where the Bible says he said "we have 800k men", he really said "we have 1.11m men" and the Bible is accurate in saying "he said how many men he had".

So back to what that means... when God said "it will rain for 40 days and nights", maybe he said "it will rain from 45 days and nights", but it's only important "he told Noah how many days it would rain".

(Me) No. That would be a change in content. The appropriate analogy would be for another text to say that God said it would rain for 10100 days, except that text was using binary instead of base ten.

Likewise, another text could say that it would rain for 2 score days and nights, or 40 full day-night cycles. They're all different ways of saying the same thing. They use different methods of categorization.

[JerryLove]

No. That would be a change in content. The appropriate analogy would be for another text to say that God said it would rain for 10100 days, except that text was using binary instead of base ten.

Likewise, another text could say that it would rain for 2 score days and nights, or 40 full day-night cycles. They're all different ways of saying the same thing. They use different methods of categorization.

That would eb valid if one verson said "a million" and the other said "a thousand thousand"... but one says "a million" and the other says "800 thousand".

So, one account gives wrong numerical information. You've made apologetyic as to why, but you must still face that the comparison stands.

Where it says Joab said "we have 800k men" perhaps it actually ment 1 million.
Where it says God said "it will rain for 40 days", maybe he actually ment 80.

Show me the fundamental difference?

[Chrysostom]

Because the two accounts use different categories in their reports, so wind up with different numbers. In other words, they're counting different things. I explained how that works above:

No, because those are content errors. The difference between the two accounts in question are categorical. In other words, let's suppose that I provide this inventory list:

5 tomatoes
3 apples
6 carrots

Suppose that someone considers tomatoes vegetables. He might say, then, that there are 11 vegetables and 3 fruits. Alternatively, if he considered tomatoes to be fruits, he might say that there are 8 fruits and 6 vegetables. Granted, this is an imperfect analogy. However, if two different people provide the same information, but choose to use different categories, there is no problem. It is only when the actual content is changed. I've tried to argue above that the difference between the two accounts is only categorical, not actually substantive (as the numbers match up correctly).

[JerryLove]

So what definition of "men" did Joab use that Joab also didn't use?

These are not two different people, these are two tellings of the same sentance.

If Joab said "800k", then when the Bible says "Joab said 1 million", the Bible is wrong... Joab did not say 1 million, Joab said 800k. What other times has the Bible claimed someone said something and been wrong in an identical manner?

[Chrysostom]

(JerryLove) So what definition of "men" did Joab use that Joab also didn't use?

(Me) Clearly, as I've explained above, the two authors were using different counting schemes.



(JerryLove) These are not two different people, these are two tellings of the same sentance.

(Me) They are two different people (authors) telling the same story from different perspectives and using different categories.

[JerryLove]

They are two different people (authors) telling the same story from different perspectives and using different categories.

So the authors just made it up? They created a story where Joab tells David something, go count how many soldiers there were and assume Joab told David that amount?

Then we have no idea how much of that story is even potentially factual... since the writer is not going from his memory of the conversation (as Joab did not say both), but is instead concocting the sentance.

This seems to be an excellent argumetn for the unreliability of Biblical texts.

[Chrysostom]

(JerryLove) So the authors just made it up? They created a story where Joab tells David something, go count how many soldiers there were and assume Joab told David that amount?

Then we have no idea how much of that story is even potentially factual... since the writer is not going from his memory of the conversation (as Joab did not say both), but is instead concocting the sentance.

This seems to be an excellent argumetn for the unreliability of Biblical texts.

(Me) No. They provided the same information but used different categories. I've explained this repeatedly.

[JerryLove]

No. They provided the same information but used different categories. I've explained this repeatedly.

Two writers give two conflicting accounts of what Joab said.

Option 1: At least one remembered wrong. If this were the case, we would not expect his number to match another number (800k matching the base army), so this is unlikely.

Option 2: At least one fabricated the number by looking it up in other portions of his writing (or creating it entirely). Option two means that portions of the Bible are fabricated myth

They cannot be differeing counting methods, because the authors did not do the counting, Joab did (unless the author's fabricated the quote).

There is reason to doubt that it's simply a mis-remembering of Joab's quote... but even if it is, how much of the rest of the Bibe is mis-remembered?

I say "I'm 31 years old"... how many differnt "categories" are there in which to write "Jerry said 'I'm 31 years old'"?

[Spoken4]

I like the idea (not the best evidence, I know) that the two authors had a different way of saying the same thing. Another factor could be the amount of time between when the books were writen. The longer one waits to record information, the better the odds for being mis-remembered.

The again, the exact number isn't really the important part of the story in question.

So, one account gives wrong numerical information. You've made apologetyic as to why, but you must still face that the comparison stands.

Where it says Joab said "we have 800k men" perhaps it actually ment 1 million.
Where it says God said "it will rain for 40 days", maybe he actually ment 80.

Show me the fundamental difference?

The difference is that God said 40 days. Why would He say 40 if He really meant 52.6 days? It was significant because it happend as God said it would; it's one of the main ideas the author wanted us to remember.
The number of men Joab reported was a mere detail that doesn't change what the author(s) wanted us to remember.

As for having the exact words of anyone in the Bible, that's not possible for any of us that don't know Hebrew.

[Ted Logan]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

We have two conflicting statements, in quotes, as being said by Joab. Joab did not, in fact, say one of them... how many other quotes from the Bible are not what was actually said by the quoted party?

Quotation marks, spaces, and punctuation are added by translators. Just as the KJV does not include quotation marks but demarcates most quotes by the use of commas, we use quotation marks. However, ancient manuscripts used none of the indications we use today. Most are simply long strings of characters with no breaks or symbols outside the character set of the alphabet used. The presumption that anyone is actually quoting someone verbatim is a modern encroachment on the text. It's our best guess.

But if you were given a parchment that looked like this

http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papy...778r-at150.gif

you'd probably make some decisions about punctuation that others would not. Who decides which passages are quotes, and which are paraphrases?

[JerryLove]

I like the idea (not the best evidence, I know) that the two authors had a different way of saying the same thing.

How many different ways are there of repeating someone else's words?

Another factor could be the amount of time between when the books were writen. The longer one waits to record information, the better the odds for being mis-remembered.

So you agree that the Bible has errors in it caused by poor memory?

The again, the exact number isn't really the important part of the story in question.

No it's not. What *is* important is weather the Bible can be relied upon as accurate. Which number did Joab claim?

The difference is that God said 40 days. Why would He say 40 if He really meant 52.6 days? It was significant because it happend as God said it would; it's one of the main ideas the author wanted us to remember.
The number of men Joab reported was a mere detail that doesn't change what the author(s) wanted us to remember.

Then you concede that the Bible is wrong in one account or the other (or both) as to Joabs words?

As for having the exact words of anyone in the Bible, that's not possible for any of us that don't know Hebrew.

I'm guessing Hebrew does not use the same word for 800,000 and for 1,000,000.

Quotation marks, spaces, and punctuation are added by translators. Just as the KJV does not include quotation marks but demarcates most quotes by the use of commas, we use quotation marks. However, ancient manuscripts used none of the indications we use today. Most are simply long strings of characters with no breaks or symbols outside the character set of the alphabet used. The presumption that anyone is actually quoting someone verbatim is a modern encroachment on the text. It's our best guess.

The "Joab said" part is probibly the give-away here... Which did Joab say?

you'd probably make some decisions about punctuation that others would not. Who decides which passages are quotes, and which are paraphrases?

But it's not a paraphrase to give the wrong number is it?

I say "I like to eat spagetti", you paraphrase into "he loves steak for dinner"... you are no longer correct.

- The numbers don't match.
- Joab gave, at most, one of the two numbers but not the other.
- The other report incorrectly states Joab's claim to David.

[Spoken4]

No it's not. What *is* important is weather the Bible can be relied upon as accurate. Which number did Joab claim?

How accurate do we need it to be? Little things like this prove that it isn't perfect. But we can't judge the entire Bible by a minor discrepency. It was writen by humans after all. Maybe there was a memory problem. Myabe the author was thinking of something else when he wrote it. Maybe David didn't keep very good records. I don't know. I wasn't there.

My point was, that this wasn't the point. The Bible gives us the basics of What happened and Why, but we don't always get the How. We know God created the world. We don't know how. We know that David wanted to know how many able-bodied men he had in his kingdom. We can't be sure how many.

[JerryLove]

How accurate do we need it to be?

Accurate enough that when Joab said 800,000; the Bible does not say he said 1,000,000.

Actually, I suppose that question is better posed to someone who follows the Bible... how big an error is OK without making the Bible unacceptable? If creation was 8 days? If Jesus resurrected after 2 days? If the Jews wandered in the desert for 40 weeks? If divorece *is* OK? If the first command is that you should murder?

Little things like this prove that it isn't perfect. But we can't judge the entire Bible by a minor discrepency.

Of course you can judge the reliability of the Bible as a sole source of information by finding errors in it and determining tha ___'s not completely accurate.

It was writen by humans after all. Maybe there was a memory problem. Myabe the author was thinking of something else when he wrote it. Maybe David didn't keep very good records. I don't know. I wasn't there.

Maybe Jesus was a girl... mayme Mary only had sex once before he was born and was virgin-like. Maybe Judas was Jesus's brother, not James. Maybe it was Peter that betrayed Jesus. Maybe he was hung from a tree, not a cross. Maybe it was someone else healing the lepers.

If we accept that the Bible has errors, then from what standard would you assert knowledge of how many or what kind? How do you know there are not "less trivial" mistakes?

My point was, that this wasn't the point. The Bible gives us the basics of What happened and Why, but we don't always get the How. We know God created the world. We don't know how. We know that David wanted to know how many able-bodied men he had in his kingdom. We can't be sure how many.

The issue is not with what the Bible does not say, the issue is weather the Bible must be viewed as potentially erronius. There are errors in the Bible, you have just admmitted this (one of the accounts is in error as to what Joab told David).

Since we know the Bible is not literally accurate, having ben written by fallable people with bad memories... on what basis do you claim it has any more accuracy than, say, the Quran?