[Astonished]

I'm not sure in what section to put this so I will put it here.

I was looking at the site for the American Atheists Inc., particularily their youth site. I came across their mission statement which I think you guys should have a look at. Here's the site:

http://www.atheists.org/family/html/mission.html

Ok, my question is, they are trying to get rid of persecution against themselves and we as Christians are trying to minimize persecution against ourselves, so who is doing all the persecuting?


Also, you guys should check out the main site for American Atheists and look at some of their arguments, you will find that all can be logically put down. A lot of them to have to do with the Bible being contradictory and they pull stuff from the Law and contrast it with the New Testament. ie. Tooth for tooth (OT) and turn the other cheek (NT).

The site is quite funny. I laughed at least

[Lyle]

So do they want children to pray in schools? Yeah I'm not sure who's doing the persecuting. They think we are, and we think they are. It's pretty crazy.... They have a section called Bad Guys :kroll: give me a break, how lame is that?

[Wally]

"Creationism cannot be supported with any evidence at all. I mean NONE. Conversely, there is a mountain of evidence against Creationism, and even more supporting darwinistic evolution."

i wish someone would go about getting someone from the site here to debate this issue. i suspect they are relatively uneducated about the whole situation and I would love to see them try to argue their side.

[MisterAgreeable]

This is more of a lobbying/advocacy organization than anything else. They seem specifically disinterested in debate. They probably wouldn't fare well in a debate, but the overwhelming majority of Christians I know actively avoid apologetical debates because they have next to no intellectual justification for their faith.

I don't see a lot of convincing pro-Christianity arguments on, say, cbn.org either. That doesn't make that site a failure in its intended goals.

If you want arguments, try talk.origins or infidels.org, for instance.

[JerryLove]

Ok, my question is, they are trying to get rid of persecution against themselves and we as Christians are trying to minimize persecution against ourselves, so who is doing all the persecuting?

More or less, everyone.

Also, you guys should check out the main site for American Atheists and look at some of their arguments, you will find that all can be logically put down. A lot of them to have to do with the Bible being contradictory and they pull stuff from the Law and contrast it with the New Testament. ie. Tooth for tooth (OT) and turn the other cheek (NT).

There is not a logical fault with that argument...the defense is an apologetic. Essentially you claim that "God changed his rules" and therefore both laws don't simultaniously apply.

So do they want children to pray in schools? Yeah I'm not sure who's doing the persecuting.

No one has ever opposed children praying in school. Many have opposed school prayer. As an Athiest at my sisters graduation (not to mention my own 10 years earlier), I got to sit through an audience-participation praryer led by the local pastor... as a Christian, would you feel opressed if your graduation started with an affirmation of no-God, or a prayer to Vishnu?

They think we are, and we think they are. It's pretty crazy

Fundamentalist Christianity is most certainly persecuting and attempting to impose its religious and moral beliefs on the country.

i wish someone would go about getting someone from the site here to debate this issue. i suspect they are relatively uneducated about the whole situation and I would love to see them try to argue their side.

I've made that argument here and defended it.

This is more of a lobbying/advocacy organization than anything else. They seem specifically disinterested in debate. They probably wouldn't fare well in a debate, but the overwhelming majority of Christians I know actively avoid apologetical debates because they have next to no intellectual justification for their faith.

Agreed, and there are a good number of lobbying / advocacy Christian sites and groups.

[joelsdad]

Fundamentalist Christianity is most certainly persecuting and attempting to impose its religious and moral beliefs on the country.

Then I would hasve to say we have not been successful in restoring the Judeo-Christian ethic this nation enjoyed for nearly 2 centuries.

As far as persecution goes I would like to see evidence that Fundamentalist Christians are actually persecuting people here in America. Show me a TV show where an atheist or gay is mocked and ridiculed and I can show you ten that portray a bible beleiving minister as a buffoon. No Christians have not been too great at being persecutors but the religious crowd and the athiests do have a long string of persecution victories under their belt.



Agreed, and there are a good number of lobbying / advocacy Christian sites and groups.

Thankfully yes there is lest America turn in to a country like the USSR was and people were sent to prison for being a bible believing Christian.

[JerryLove]

Then I would hasve to say we have not been successful in restoring the Judeo-Christian ethic this nation enjoyed for nearly 2 centuries.

Ahh yes, back when slavery was legal; brothels were in motor homse so they could move around, 13-year-old kids killing people in armed robberies were folk-heros, prhibition and the mob, gunfighters, the raping and genocide of the Indians, etc... very Christ-like.

As far as persecution goes I would like to see evidence that Fundamentalist Christians are actually persecuting people here in America. Show me a TV show where an atheist or gay is mocked and ridiculed and I can show you ten that portray a bible beleiving minister as a buffoon.

While I doubt your ability to show an order of magnatude increase... espically in regards to non-tounge-in-cheek media; you've just agreed with me. Since I never claimed that Christians were not persecuted, only that some Christians were persecuting others... You just admitted that happens.

Thankfully yes there is lest America turn in to a country like the USSR was and people were sent to prison for being a bible believing Christian.

No, here we only throw you in jail of your Muslim. I suppose the Christin Roman empire executing non-christians, or Christian europe denying them any rights (and often torturing them to death as satanists), not to mention colonial America...

But hey, why look at that log in your own eye?

[Lyle]

Originally posted by JerryLove
Ahh yes, back when slavery was legal; brothels were in motor homse so they could move around, 13-year-old kids killing people in armed robberies were folk-heros, prhibition and the mob, gunfighters, the raping and genocide of the Indians, etc... very Christ-like.

I'll back you on this one, we have had a crooked past. If you look at it in general, maybe look at what was happening where the lights didn't flash, missionaries were reaching into far away lands, many giving their own lives. The Bible was openingly and boldly preached everywhere.... But I think as the history of our nation goes, it would be more from the beginning to the mid-1800's

Originally posted by JerryLove
While I doubt your ability to show an order of magnatude increase... espically in regards to non-tounge-in-cheek media; you've just agreed with me. Since I never claimed that Christians were not persecuted, only that some Christians were persecuting others... You just admitted that happens.

Well the blockbuster Titanic did a pretty good job. Towards the end when the ship was sinking. Or the game Adventure out of time, they make the rev. lok like a complete idiot. You can see it everywhere, movies like to show most Christians as morons. Though I'm not quite sure it's a 1:10 ratio, but I don't know all the media that well....

Originally posted by JerryLove
No, here we only throw you in jail of your Muslim. I suppose the Christin Roman empire executing non-christians, or Christian europe denying them any rights (and often torturing them to death as satanists), not to mention colonial America...

But hey, why look at that log in your own eye?

Then maybe you should ask yourself if they really were Christians, or just said they were. Most were not Christians andthat is clearly seen through the reading of events during that time, and the way the athorities reacted to things such as printing the Bible.
But to look at America today, we have fallen so far from where we were when we started as a nation. There are alot of things that I would not support... There's a song that says

We so proudly profian the sacred
As we glorify one and everything
We mock and we curse
With our meter and verse
That which we used to believe

[JerryLove]

I'll back you on this one, we have had a crooked past. If you look at it in general, maybe look at what was happening where the lights didn't flash, missionaries were reaching into far away lands, many giving their own lives. The Bible was openingly and boldly preached everywhere.... But I think as the history of our nation goes, it would be more from the beginning to the mid-1800's

So it was a nation of Bible-thumping Christians that started the civil war? That founded the KKK? That committed genocide? That made heros out of mass-murderer (Jessie James, Billy the Kid, etc)?

BTW, the bible is still quoted openly. In the 1950s, God was added to the money and to teh pledge of allegience, and there he remains; congress opens and closes with a mass, school graduations open with a benediction; there are Christian television stations.. ever seen an American station for any other religion?

Well the blockbuster Titanic did a pretty good job. Towards the end when the ship was sinking. Or the game Adventure out of time, they make the rev. lok like a complete idiot. You can see it everywhere, movies like to show most Christians as morons. Though I'm not quite sure it's a 1:10 ratio, but I don't know all the media that well....

1. Signs, 2. The Prophecy (1-3), 3. The Omen, 4. The end of Days, 5. Every Segal movie, 6. The devil's advocate... there's a half-dozen that took it seriously.

More importantly, some entire networks are devoted to calling all non-Christians wrong (CBN). Not to entertainment with Christian underpinnings (and BTW, how do you know there aas not an idiot reverend on the Titanic?), but to "news and teaching" that criticizes (rarely with argument, usually with rhetoric) non-christians.

I can show you one politition after another calling homosexuals evil and twisted, or spouting exactly what you are ("get our country back to God") but I'm having trouble finding elected officials who call Christians names.

When religious fervor caused the death of 5,000 Americans in the trade center, what song was congress out on the steps singing again? Oh yes, one of relgious fervor, "God bless America".

Then maybe you should ask yourself if they really were Christians, or just said they were. Most were not Christians andthat is clearly seen through the reading of events during that time, and the way the athorities reacted to things such as printing the Bible.

There has not been a single century since gutenberg invented the press, where the Bible has not been the worlds most printed book. So to what are you referring?

But to look at America today, we have fallen so far from where we were when we started as a nation. There are alot of things that I would not support... There's a song that says

No more slaves, no more legal gunfights, no more Japaneese internment camps, no more shanty towns of workers with no rights who owe tehir employers, not more indentured servitude, no more legal persecution of blacks, or the Chinese, or the Irish... how far we have fallen.

[Lyle]

Originally posted by JerryLove
So it was a nation of Bible-thumping Christians that started the civil war? That founded the KKK? That committed genocide? That made heros out of mass-murderer (Jessie James, Billy the Kid, etc)?

The civil war was started over more then slavery, it was over rights. Weh Confederates didn't want to be under a central goverment. The issue was much bigger then slavery.... It was about rights of all. War is not bad, for the Bible says there is a time for war and a time for peace. The God fearing men of that time thought it time from war, to stand up for freedom....... And as I rememeber from study (this was a while ago), Billy the Kid was for the most part enticed and framed by a shariff who wanted to bring glory to himself..

Originally posted by JerryLove
BTW, the bible is still quoted openly. In the 1950s, God was added to the money and to teh pledge of allegience, and there he remains; congress opens and closes with a mass, school graduations open with a benediction; there are Christian television stations.. ever seen an American station for any other religion?

NATO won't allow the name of Jesus to be even mentioned from the stand, it was the only thing they could agree upon when they first met together. And not all who use the name of God are good, it's more of an empty religion. You can stick the name of God anywhere but that doesn't make it good, or the one who did it righteous. This nation bears no fruit in a whole, I can only imagine how it must greive the heart of God, it is become a mission field itself..
Teachers have been removed for teaching about God. This fuzzy everyone's equal banner has been raised over our children. In 1952 praying in school was banned, though many still do. People complain it's violating the first Amendment. But religion on state are to be institutionaly seperate, there wasn't intended to be this hugh gap between God and the state..... This nation is morally darkned....
And alot of the TV stations that broadcast the Bible, I almost wish weren't there. Such as TBN, I've watched this for over a year and onl;y heard one good thrity minute message, most are not based on the Bible and are totally out there from what the Bible really is.

Originally posted by JerryLove
and BTW, how do you know there as not an idiot reverend on the Titanic?), but to "news and teaching" that criticizes (rarely with argument, usually with rhetoric) non-christians.

When the ship is sinking, in one of the last scenes. He's on the Poop Deck reading from the book of revelation.

Originally posted by JerryLove
I can show you one politition after another calling homosexuals evil and twisted, or spouting exactly what you are ("get our country back to God") but I'm having trouble finding elected officials who call Christians names.

God help this nation to revive. Many say and do not. Most are as paper on the wind and don't do a thing about anything.

Originally posted by JerryLove
When religious fervor caused the death of 5,000 Americans in the trade center, what song was congress out on the steps singing again? Oh yes, one of relgious fervor, "God bless America".

Oh yes, that was good, but it was as a shawdow. In times of trouble we have this thing of running to God and crying as though He owes us His attention after what we have done. People turn to God in their hard times, but when times are good they are back to themselves. Where did "God Bless America," go?
The last time I heard it was a while ago. Just because you sing that it doesn't mean anything.......

Originally posted by JerryLove
There has not been a single century since gutenberg invented the press, where the Bible has not been the worlds most printed book. So to what are you referring?

Becayse God has sustained the Bible throughout time. It's a testimony of His grace in the world. King James for example burned thousands of copies of the Bible. Killing many that would dare to print. When the Bible was first being printed it was strongly opposed

Originally posted by JerryLove
No more slaves, no more legal gunfights, no more Japaneese internment camps, no more shanty towns of workers with no rights who owe tehir employers, not more indentured servitude, no more legal persecution of blacks, or the Chinese, or the Irish... how far we have fallen.

You missed my point. Turn back in your history book farther then the 1900s. I mean the 1700s, the Mayflower Compact, The Declaration of Independance, The Constitution, The Articles of Confederation. A time when Shay's rebellion was noted as a "critical period", because people were turning form the Bible.

[JerryLove]

The civil war was started over more then slavery, it was over rights.

Again you presume something I never said. I did not say that the reason for teh civil war was slavery, I just said that the civil war was started by a nation you ID'd as Christian.

War is not bad, for the Bible says there is a time for war and a time for peace.

It also says that all authority comes from God and rebelling against authority is rebelling against God. Either way, you claimed the country was Christian... I presume you feel one side or the other was in the wrong... which Christians would you like to blame?

And as I rememeber from study (this was a while ago), Billy the Kid was for the most part enticed and framed by a shariff who wanted to bring glory to himself..

He was a repeat-offender armed bank robber with a long list of kills on his record... and he was idolized for it.

NATO won't allow the name of Jesus to be even mentioned from the stand, it was the only thing they could agree upon when they first met together.

With a Muslim country mentioned, I wonder why.. That said, I doubt highly your statement that NATO made only one agreement on their first meeting and it was "now saying 'Jesus' from teh stand". Please support... and then show some relevence to the topic at hand.

And not all who use the name of God are good, it's more of an empty religion. You can stick the name of God anywhere but that doesn't make it good, or the one who did it righteous. This nation bears no fruit in a whole, I can only imagine how it must greive the heart of God, it is become a mission field itself..

Because you are the arbiter of Chrisindom and Gods will; you are right and all "so-called" Christians who disagree with you make God sad. [/sarcasm]

That said, you still need to back up your many claims regarding the nation being anti-Christian and persecuting Christians... but then, what you really need to do, is show that no person who has ever persecuted an Atheist was Christian, because that's what you railed against.

Teachers have been removed for teaching about God. This fuzzy everyone's equal banner has been raised over our children. In 1952 praying in school was banned, though many still do. People complain it's violating the first Amendment.

Give me one example, anywhere in the US, where any standing ruling exists which disallows a student to pray in school. (and no, one that excludes (for example) speaking at all will not count, you need a disallowance of prayer or something Christian in regards to a student).

You won't find it, despite your claim none exist.

And alot of the TV stations that broadcast the Bible, I almost wish weren't there. Such as TBN, I've watched this for over a year and onl;y heard one good thrity minute message, most are not based on the Bible and are totally out there from what the Bible really is.

So we are back to "not real Christians"... this is not a discussion of Christians persecuting one-another. This is about my claim that Atheists are persecuted by Christians, and your claim that persecution of Christians represents the vast majority of persecution.

When the ship is sinking, in one of the last scenes. He's on the Poop Deck reading from the book of revelation.

You misunderstand... on what grounds do you claim that the protrayl does not accurately represent a real person and his behavior?

God help this nation to revive. Many say and do not. Most are as paper on the wind and don't do a thing about anything.

Really? I live in a country where homosexuals cannot get married, and have great trouble adopting. In my state, it's also illegal for them to have sex... wonder what the foundation for anti-homosexuality laws is? Seems like more than wind to me.

Oh yes, that was good, but it was as a shawdow. In times of trouble we have this thing of running to God and crying as though He owes us His attention after what we have done. People turn to God in their hard times, but when times are good they are back to themselves. Where did "God Bless America," go?
The last time I heard it was a while ago. Just because you sing that it doesn't mean anything.......

It establishes an underlying tone of Christianity in the US... they could have sung to Allah or Vishnu... they could have even not responded to religious fundamentalisim by heading down the same rad that the Islamic fundamentalists did.

And what of the non-Christian members of congress? Sing praise to a diety differnt then their own or ignore the call to solidarity? If it had been an Islamic song, what would you have then done? What effect would that have had on your career in a primarily Islamic country?

Becayse God has sustained the Bible throughout time. It's a testimony of His grace in the world. King James for example burned thousands of copies of the Bible. Killing many that would dare to print. When the Bible was first being printed it was strongly opposed

And yet it's the best selling book of every century since it came out. Stop changing the subject... tell me how the best selling book in the world is being impugned successfully.

Shall I start mentioning all the books Christians have burned? Take a look at the 50s some-time.. the book bunrings, the black-listings, etc... this is Christian Conservative America.

You missed my point. Turn back in your history book farther then the 1900s. I mean the 1700s, the Mayflower Compact, The Declaration of Independance, The Constitution, The Articles of Confederation. A time when Shay's rebellion was noted as a "critical period", because people were turning form the Bible.

And you didn't read... I was discussing the 1800s, not the 1900s. In the 1700s we still had slavery, and the genocide of the Indians, and such wonderful Christian activities as the bunring of witches (and the overlooking of such)... the admission of spectral evidence in trials, and a rebellion against the authority of England (violating Romans 13 again).

Then we got a constitution that prohibited federal support of religion, and with no mention of God or religion (other than that restriction against condoning it).

So, prove every Christian persecuting an Atheist isn't really a Christian or admit the primary point that Atheists are persecuted by Christians.

[+Donny]

Fundamentalist Christianity is most certainly persecuting and attempting to impose its religious and moral beliefs on the country.

Despite the loaded words... so what?

[JerryLove]

So, Ilive2serv's question is answered.

[Chrysostom]

(JerryLove) Fundamentalist Christianity is most certainly persecuting and attempting to impose its religious and moral beliefs on the country.

(Me) There are certainly degrees of "persecuting" that could be debated, but it is no complaint at all to say that a worldview is "attempting to impose its religious and moral beliefs on the country." All worldviews do that, no matter the case.



(MisterAgreeable) If you want arguments, try talk.origins or infidels.org, for instance.

(Me) You might examine the debates between infidels.org's Dr. Gordon Stein and Mr. Edward Tabash vs. the Orthodox Presbyterian Church's Dr. Greg Bahnsen

[JerryLove]

There are certainly degrees of "persecuting" that could be debated, but it is no complaint at all to say that a worldview is "attempting to impose its religious and moral beliefs on the country." All worldviews do that, no matter the case.

Not all moralities demand that you conduct yourself by their standards of morality. There's a difference between may saying that everyone should help one another and me attempting to impose a law reqiring it.