[joelsdad]

Straw-man, I don't have the concept you ascribe to me. What is at issue is your claim the people with subjective values behave more poorly than those with objective values. A claim you have only even attempted to support anticdotally.

Well Jerry, it is you that has the subjective value system, and bible beleiving Christians who tend to have the more objective value system. It is secularism that places its values at the whims of society. Christianity is far less than operfect (not because of its head< Jesus but becuase we frail sinners fail to live up to our noble calling) but it still stands head and shoulders above the subjective whims of secularism.

Discrimintory language from someone who does the same. Their base book is the Bible, just like yours... and they then listen to others interprete it, just like you have.

Well Jerry, it is refresahing to know that implied in your insult is the reality that your beleif system is all your own and you never listened to anybody. It is convenient to hurl stones at Christianity from the outside looking in but you do not understand the workings of true faith and just scream at religiosity. And yes, I have listened to others speak from scripture, some I have learned much from and others I toss aside their speakings. But please until you learn more agbout how the cults you mentioned work, don't indict the Bible for their behavior, for sure they used (or rather abused) the bible but their major textbook were the wqhims of their leaders--that is fact beyond doubt.

We stopped committing genocide on the indians, invading mexico, and warring upon ourselves? Damn secularists.

those were hideous acts yes indeed, but now thanks to our secularism we have murdered 35,000,000 babies bomb aspirin factories to cover up presidential dalliances, and are promoting euthenasia of the infirmed and pedophilia for the perverse. Yes sir what an advance--. With less money and a higher sdtudent to teacher ratio them nasaty religious schools put out better educated children (the general rule as proved by the Iowa tests), thanks to secularism drugs are pandemic in America, teen pregnancies are ospinning out of control, 80% of black children are born out of wedlock, we STDs that are immune to all present antibiotics, alcoholism is rising. Societies will always have problems, but if you think people are mentally, em,otionally and morally better off today than they were when there was a far greater respect for the bible and its teachings then y ou like Elvis have left the building. divorces are greater, even in the churches, antidepressantrs are the #1 drug prescribed (more to woman than men thanks to post abortion syndrome) our nation is wealthier but has grteater poverty, less joy and less inner security.

ow, I'd love to see you tie those two together; considering how your position is the imposition of Christian morality. Tell me how much freedom people who get execudted if they work on Saturday will have?

What are you going to come up with another bizaare offshoot of some Christian denomination that kills people for working on Saturday and hang it on all the church again?

Which presumption is that? That I can read the Bible successfully? Your enire attempt at redirect is simply pathetic.

No your presumptions thast you know who I am without even asking what I beleive in areas.

Oh, there are no rules for government in the NT... just rules for Christians. I guess the bible agrees with me then.

No there are plenty of rules for making successful governemtn, but they are based on moral foundations so you do not know how to see them there. The Bible agrees with you if you want to go back in time to pre Christ Israel when they were ruling themselves and before the rise of the Pharisee, Tanaim, Saducees etc.

[JerryLove]

Well Jerry, it is you that has the subjective value system, and bible beleiving Christians who tend to have the more objective value system.

Mine is internal and externally influenced, yours is external and internally influenced.

It is secularism that places its values at the whims of society. Christianity is far less than operfect (not because of its head< Jesus but becuase we frail sinners fail to live up to our noble calling) but it still stands head and shoulders above the subjective whims of secularism.

Why does adherence to the morals in your book stand heads and shoulders above adherence to morals from another source?

IN CAPS BECAUSE YOU KEEP NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION: WHAT PROOF CAN YOU OFFER TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM THAT PEOPLE WITH SUBJECTIVE VALUES BEHAVE MORE POORLY THAN PEOPLE WITH OBJECTIVE VALUES... THAT IS YOUR CLAIM, SUPPORT IT.

Well Jerry, it is refresahing to know that implied in your insult is the reality that your beleif system is all your own and you never listened to anybody. It is convenient to hurl stones at Christianity from the outside looking in but you do not understand the workings of true faith and just scream at religiosity.

That's simply an ad-hominim.

And yes, I have listened to others speak from scripture, some I have learned much from and others I toss aside their speakings. But please until you learn more agbout how the cults you mentioned work, don't indict the Bible for their behavior, for sure they used (or rather abused) the bible but their major textbook were the wqhims of their leaders--that is fact beyond doubt.

I cannot stop what I have not done... you put up another straw man. The members of the cults in question (KKK, Aryan Nation) are looking at the same source material as you, listening to their peers and mentors just like you, ascepting some and rejecing others just like you, and coming to conclusions as to what the Bible means, just like you... theirs are different from yours.

those were hideous acts yes indeed, but now thanks to our secularism we have murdered 35,000,000 babies bomb aspirin factories to cover up presidential dalliances, and are promoting euthenasia of the infirmed and pedophilia for the perverse.

Need I remind you that the president doing that is a born-again Christian? And to what 35 million babies are you referring?

Yes sir what an advance--. With less money and a higher sdtudent to teacher ratio them nasaty religious schools put out better educated children (the general rule as proved by the Iowa tests), thanks to secularism drugs are pandemic in America, teen pregnancies are ospinning out of control, 80% of black children are born out of wedlock, we STDs that are immune to all present antibiotics, alcoholism is rising. Societies will always have problems, but if you think people are mentally, em,otionally and morally better off today than they were when there was a far greater respect for the bible and its teachings then y ou like Elvis have left the building. divorces are greater, even in the churches, antidepressantrs are the #1 drug prescribed (more to woman than men thanks to post abortion syndrome) our nation is wealthier but has grteater poverty, less joy and less inner security.

Teen preganancy is down actually, test scores have nothing to do with morality, the rise of anti-biotic strains of bacteria is a result of the use of antibiotice, and Noah was a drunkard. Divorces are highest among reformist Christians, and Atheists are the second lowest. Poverty, judged by the old standard, is practically non-existant in the US, and abortions account for next to none of the anti-depression perscriptions statistically.

Will you ever say anything which is actually true I wonder?

What are you going to come up with another bizaare offshoot of some Christian denomination that kills people for working on Saturday and hang it on all the church again?

I was thinking of Leviticus.

No your presumptions thast you know who I am without even asking what I beleive in areas.

Oh, I know who you are.. but I was referring to Biblical mandate.

No there are plenty of rules for making successful governemtn, but they are based on moral foundations so you do not know how to see them there.

Another factual claim... care to offer one up?

[joelsdad]

That's simply an ad-hominim.

Maybe so but true nonetheless

Mine is internal and externally influenced, yours is external and internally influenced.

And you are a better source to make laws than the Bible because???

I cannot stop what I have not done... you put up another straw man. The members of the cults in question (KKK, Aryan Nation) are looking at the same source material as you, listening to their peers and mentors just like you, ascepting some and rejecing others just like you, and coming to conclusions as to what the Bible means, just like you... theirs are different from yours.

That is simply untrue. Any tome on the workings of cults will show you that though they may use the Bible-it is merely to launch their own agenda and twist simple meanings of Scripture to suit their own ends. The Bible for them is A source reference not THE source reference.

IN CAPS BECAUSE YOU KEEP NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION: WHAT PROOF CAN YOU OFFER TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM THAT PEOPLE WITH SUBJECTIVE VALUES BEHAVE MORE POORLY THAN PEOPLE WITH OBJECTIVE VALUES... THAT IS YOUR CLAIM, SUPPORT IT.

No my claim is that people who seek to adhere to biblical truth as their objective value system generally behave far better than people who don't. My proof??

First rates of recidivism in jails throughout the country is vastly lower for inmates who adhere to Christian values than those who don't (Chuck Colsons web site has the actual facts and figures, I got mine from when I was chaplain for 6 years at the locasl o____y jail.)

Second according to PEW, Barna, and Gallup Christrian based giving is far greater than non Christian based.

Third, criminal arrests are far lower amongst Christiansd than any other segment of society ( I refer not to nominal Christianity but to those who actively pursue their faith iin Christ.) Data from U.S. Census and inmate population polls.

Need I remind you that the president doing that is a born-again Christian? And to what 35 million babies are you referring?

This just concluded war in Iraq was like no other. Civilian caualties were the least of any war recorded. And the 35,000,000 babies I am referring to are the ones who have been legally murdered in this country since 1972 when Roe v. Wade became accepted interpretaion in the land. remembver abortion is still not a law but just a right found in the "illuminations of the penumbra" of the Constitution, by subjective judges who admitted they see no absolute rule.

and abortions account for next to none of the anti-depression perscriptions statistically

Go to web sites on Post abortion syndrome and look it up for your self, how many women "statistically " suffer depression from abortion.

Teen preganancy is down actually, test scores have nothing to do with morality,

Teen pregnancies may be down from say a decade ago, but still vastly higher than the 50's and early 60's. And 45% of all black children are born to single black teen girls. Test scores(education) has been proven conclusively to have much to do with morality. The more functional illiterate people, the higher the crime rate\, because the higher the unemployment rate in modern society.

Divorces are highest among reformist Christians, and Atheists are the second lowest.

Sad but true

was thinking of Leviticus.

Right I forget you like going to something that doesn't exist for any country anymore.

Poverty, judged by the old standard, is practically non-existant in the US

Well according to Daschle, Kennedy and several other liberal champions, if we raised the poverty line consitently with the rate of inflation over the past 40 years, poverty would be at its highest levels since the great depression.

Oh, I know who you are.. but I was referring to Biblical mandate.

Well Jerery, based on you rassumptions about biblical mandates and your ad hominum attacks on me, you know neither.

the rise of anti-biotic strains of bacteria is a result of the use of antibiotice

I stand corrected here. But the rise of STD's is the main issue. Jerry, just simply ask your self Is this nation better off today than it was in the 50"s? I know you say yes, but wommen do not have itr better today. They suffer more know than they did before. Jane Bryant Quinn several years ago wrote that the womans lib movement did more harm than good, and it got her blackballed by NOW. Sure we have more material possessions, but less inner security, less astability on a family level, more depenedence ona socialistic form of government thanon each other, more locks on doors, less educated children despoite the advances in technology, more jails, more drug use both legal and illegal. IN short more of all the bad things that make life darker and not brighter.

Another factual claim... care to offer one up?

Pick a few categories of general law and we will cite New Testament passages that lay the groundwork for laws. I will say this up front, the New Testament does not spell it out like Leviticus does (thought hose were for a specific people for a specific time), but they do give clear teachings on commands from God that if drawen up into legislation make great laws. So picj some general categories and let us go at it.

[JerryLove]

Maybe so but true nonetheless

And it's also true that your an ignorant, arrogant, narciccistic ****; but that's hardly a useful argument.

And you are a better source to make laws than the Bible because???

An the bible is a better source to make laws than me because?

That is simply untrue. Any tome on the workings of cults will show you that though they may use the Bible-it is merely to launch their own agenda and twist simple meanings of Scripture to suit their own ends. The Bible for them is A source reference not THE source reference.

Groups like the KKK and Aryan nation are not cults, so your statement, even if true, is unrelated ot the issue.

No my claim is that people who seek to adhere to biblical truth as their objective value system generally behave far better than people who don't. My proof??

You can't remember your own claims can you?

"For now Jerry, but when a society rejects an absolute set of values for a relative set of values then we may see this enacted. Once again when people no longer hold to absolutes then anything can and usually does go." - joelsdad 06-23-2003, 07:16 AM

First rates of recidivism in jails throughout the country is vastly lower for inmates who adhere to Christian values than those who don't (Chuck Colsons web site has the actual facts and figures, I got mine from when I was chaplain for 6 years at the locasl o____y jail.)

Well, i took a look at this site (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_cap) and see many nations far more secular than the US with lower crime rates (Japan, for example, has 1/4th our crime rate, and 1/5th our murder rate).

When I get numbers on religion as it relates to crime within the US, I'll let you know... it's not reasily available from unbiased sources.

Third, criminal arrests are far lower amongst Christiansd than any other segment of society ( I refer not to nominal Christianity but to those who actively pursue their faith iin Christ.) Data from U.S. Census and inmate population polls.

Circular as you define "nominal Chrsitians" to a god extent by where they fit into your position.

Go to web sites on Post abortion syndrome and look it up for your self, how many women "statistically " suffer depression from abortion.

"there was not, and still isn't, any solid data for making any accurate estimate of how many women suffer from post-abortion psychological sequelae" - http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon...e_reported.asp

However, 80% of all mothers who give birth suffer minor depression (post natal blues), and 20% suffer long-term major depression (post natal depression) - http://www.mentalhealth.org.au/info/...postnatal.html

Since the birth rate in the US is more than 3 times the abortion rate, even if 50% of women who abort suffer PAPS, that's still a minority compared just to the 20% suffering PND... add in the number of other disorders which end in perscriptions of anti-depressents, and you'll find your claim absurd.

Teen pregnancies may be down from say a decade ago, but still vastly higher than the 50's and early 60's. And 45% of all black children are born to single black teen girls.

Another lie by you. - http://parentingteens.about.com/libr...birthrate1.htm

Test scores(education) has been proven conclusively to have much to do with morality. The more functional illiterate people, the higher the crime rate\, because the higher the unemployment rate in modern society.

But you have not tied religion to literacy... nor can you in the manner you would ascribe because it's another lie by you.

Right I forget you like going to something that doesn't exist for any country anymore.

You mean the command of an unchainging God?

Well according to Daschle, Kennedy and several other liberal champions, if we raised the poverty line consitently with the rate of inflation over the past 40 years, poverty would be at its highest levels since the great depression.

But you weren't comparing to the 20th century... you keep chaning your criteria to suit your needs. Compared to the "chrsitian nation" of 1800, there is far less povrety (far fewer people need to hunt food because htey cannot get any, far less homless, far lower unemployment, far higher standard of living, etc).

Speaking of which, and having exposed your lie that teen pregnancy was lower in the 1950s, you'll similarly find that teeen pregnancy was higher in the 1850s and 1750s than they are today.

Well Jerery, based on you rassumptions about biblical mandates and your ad hominum attacks on me, you know neither.

This is the first post you get to see an ad-hominim... it's at the top.

But the rise of STD's is the main issue.

I can't find numbers from the 1950s (or the 1800s), but looking at the numbers from the 1970s to now (http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/dstd/Stats...Trends2000.pdf) The infection rates are decreasing in most every STD (the excption being HIV, which is decreasing over the past 10 years, but was not around in 1970).

I also notice that several (like Ghonnareea) are most prevelent in the Bible-belt.

It's also worth noting that in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, the US Govrenement set up borthels to serve the troops because the infection with STDs was so high... that covers the 1950s.

Jerry, just simply ask your self Is this nation better off today than it was in the 50"s? I know you say yes, but wommen do not have itr better today. They suffer more know than they did before.

Another baseless assertion by you.

Jane Bryant Quinn several years ago wrote that the womans lib movement did more harm than good, and it got her blackballed by NOW.

Appeal to authority.

Sure we have more material possessions, but less inner security, less astability on a family level, more depenedence ona socialistic form of government thanon each other, more locks on doors, less educated children despoite the advances in technology, more jails, more drug use both legal and illegal. IN short more of all the bad things that make life darker and not brighter.

Another factual claim without support... and I'm quite certain as fradulent as your others.

Pick a few categories of general law and we will cite New Testament passages that lay the groundwork for laws. I will say this up front, the New Testament does not spell it out like Leviticus does (thought hose were for a specific people for a specific time), but they do give clear teachings on commands from God that if drawen up into legislation make great laws. So picj some general categories and let us go at it.

I'll even let you pick the category... give me te NT rules for making an effective government.

[joelsdad]

http://www.afterabortion.org/

For those who might be interested, here is a wonderful website with links to heavily researched effects of abortion on physical and emotional health of women. It is extensively footnoted with all the studies and doctors and research groups results. It is sad reading.

An the bible is a better source to make laws than me because?

Because it was in spired by God and mere mortals like you and I

And it's also true that your an ignorant, arrogant, narciccistic ****; but that's hardly a useful argument.

But your opiunion of me seems to give you some sense of whatever so it has a uselful benefit after all.

roups like the KKK and Aryan nation are not cults, so your statement, even if true, is unrelated ot the issue.

If you do not consider them cults, what do you consider them then??/

Speaking of which, and having exposed your lie that teen pregnancy was lower in the 1950s, you'll similarly find that teeen pregnancy was higher in the 1850s and 1750s than they are today.

They were also married then as well

Circular as you define "nominal Chrsitians" to a god extent by where they fit into your position.

Nope but according to the definition of nominal as compared to active.

For now Jerry, but when a society rejects an absolute set of values for a relative set of values then we may see this enacted. Once again when people no longer hold to absolutes then anything can and usually does go." - joelsdad 06-23-2003, 07:16 AM

Mea culpa on my part. I should have defined what I hold to absolute earlier so there would not have been a misunderstanding

Well, i took a look at this site (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_cap) and see many nations far more secular than the US with lower crime rates (Japan, for example, has 1/4th our crime rate, and 1/5th our murder rate).

But look at the segments of our society that commit the crimes and the vast majority of them are the secular segment or the nominally religious segment or the cultic segment. I am not inferrinfg that bible beleiving Christians commit no crime, but it is a far lower rate than other segments.

there was not, and still isn't, any solid data for making any accurate estimate of how many women suffer from post-abortion psychological sequelae" - http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardo...ve_reported.asp

The website I posted at the beginningwill show this wrong. And over 20,000,000 women who have aborted babies in this country in 3 decades is hardly insignificant.

However, 80% of all mothers who give birth suffer minor depression (post natal blues), and 20% suffer long-term major depression (post natal depression)

PPD is considered a near normal part of birth due to chemical changes (not all but the most) severe depression is a combo of both chemical imbalance and external stress factors.

But you have not tied religion to literacy... nor can you in the manner you would ascribe because it's another lie by you.

Tis but a smoke screen argument by you. But interestingly enough when our society did have a greater respect for the Bible and public schools used faith based resources for reading and grammar, literacy rates were far higher. If I can find web sites for materials fromo the 2 books "NEA Trojan horse of American Education, and "Like Lambs to the Skaughter" I will post the statistics.

I know you would reject most of statistical evidence on these for they are and were compiled by Christian researchers and yiou would scream "bias". But as Christians were the ones most interested in the impact of the secularization of America they have produced the most statistical studies in this avenue.

You mean the command of an unchainging God?

Should I build an Ark then ?? There was another command from an unchanging God. You really should stop pulling verses out of their context.

This is the first post you get to see an ad-hominim... it's at the top.

Oh Jerry so many closed threads where you attacked me and others, and so little time!

Appeal to authority.

Well let us dump you rsites where you cite studies done by authorities.

I'll even let you pick the category... give me te NT rules for making an effective government.

OK I will take a few days though in order to hopefully cate4gorize them in a way that is satisfactoryu to you so you won't pickk apart how I arranged them versus the fact that the NT gives great principles for making great governemtn and society.

Another lie by you. - http://parentingteens.about.com/lib...nbirthrate1.htm

I will have to remember to post as favorites web sites that show the statisitcs that refute yours. I will from now on. And relook them up.

Edit by mustbenothing: there was a coding error in this post that made the rest of the thread look really weird. I fixed it. Carry on

[joelsdad]

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/teenp/data.htm

Well I can admit when I am wrong. I used a study with incomplete or delayed data. However I will find the data on minority birth rates to single parents increasing.

[joelsdad]

http://www.ashastd.org/stdfaqs/statistics.html

Statistics on Various STD's--If Jerry is correct in his assertions then the 1950's had 8 of 10 people in America oir therabouts with STD's

[joelsdad]

http://www.demossnewspond.com/pf/releases/ifistudyrls061803.htm

website showing statistically significant reduced rates of recidivism for those who follow Christ outside of prision-more sites on this to follow.

[JerryLove]

Because it was in spired by God and mere mortals like you and I

No, it's a fictional work written by generation after generation of clergy, rulers, and self-titled prophets attempting to bend the populus to their respective wills.

If you do not consider them cults, what do you consider them then??/

Groups.

They were also married then as well

And often would-be now; but you are ignoring the issue... you lied again.

Nope but according to the definition of nominal as compared to active.

And what would that definition be? And where is the study?

But look at the segments of our society that commit the crimes and the vast majority of them are the secular segment or the nominally religious segment or the cultic segment. I am not inferrinfg that bible beleiving Christians commit no crime, but it is a far lower rate than other segments.

Cite.

The website I posted at the beginningwill show this wrong. And over 20,000,000 women who have aborted babies in this country in 3 decades is hardly insignificant.

The number of women on anti-depressent drugs curently as a proportion of the total number of people on anti-depressent drugs is not a signifigantly large percentage... again, you ignored what you said (that most perscriptions of anti-depressents were going to women with post-abortion depression) and pretend like you were discussing something else... That tactic was old long ago.

PPD is considered a near normal part of birth due to chemical changes (not all but the most) severe depression is a combo of both chemical imbalance and external stress factors.

Why is irellevent... you were claiming abortions were bad because of Pose-abortion depression... under your logic births are bad because of post-birth depression.

Tis but a smoke screen argument by you. But interestingly enough when our society did have a greater respect for the Bible and public schools used faith based resources for reading and grammar, literacy rates were far higher.

No, they were not. But feel free to try to support your claim.

And BTW, literacy rates among non-handicapped people under 65 who schooled in America is functionally 100%. How much better do you feel they used to be than that?

I know you would reject most of statistical evidence on these for they are and were compiled by Christian researchers and yiou would scream "bias". But as Christians were the ones most interested in the impact of the secularization of America they have produced the most statistical studies in this avenue.

Current number is about 100%, what is the old number?

Should I build an Ark then ?? There was another command from an unchanging God. You really should stop pulling verses out of their context.

That's bull-pucky and you know it. "Rain from now on" was not a command.

Oh Jerry so many closed threads where you attacked me and others, and so little time!

In *this* thread genius.

Well let us dump you rsites where you cite studies done by authorities.

Collected data is not an appeal to authority... appealing to someone else's conclusion is an appeal to authority. Do try to pay attention.

OK I will take a few days though in order to hopefully cate4gorize them in a way that is satisfactoryu to you so you won't pickk apart how I arranged them versus the fact that the NT gives great principles for making great governemtn and society.

How about you come up with 1-2 now?

I will have to remember to post as favorites web sites that show the statisitcs that refute yours. I will from now on. And relook them up.

Yea, sure you will.

However I will find the data on minority birth rates to single parents increasing.

Then you'll find out that minorities are more religious than the majority... what then?

Statistics on Various STD's--If Jerry is correct in his assertions then the 1950's had 8 of 10 people in America oir therabouts with STD's

They are not my statistics, they are from the CDC... THE authority for contagious desiease in the US.

The current number is between 45 million and 70 million...

website showing statistically significant reduced rates of recidivism for those who follow Christ outside of prision-more sites on this to follow

Wow, your inability to read is annoying... from your website:

The study, conducted by the University of Pennsylvania and completed earlier this month, shows that graduates of InnerChange Freedom Initiative, a faith- and values-based prisoner reform program, are overcoming the odds of returning to prison.

Let me reiterate the important part... GRADUATES OF THE PROGRAM... this is not a statistical sampling of religious vs non-religious inmates... this discusses the effacy of an intervention program as opposed to those not participating... it does nothing for your assertion.

BTW, I don't think you ever delt with the topic...

ATHEISTS ARE PERSECUTED, AND CHRISTIANS DO PERSECUTE ATHEISTS. That is what I orginally posted, and where you started your (unfortunately typical) chain of topic-changes to avoid accounting.

[Chrysostom]

(JerryLove) An the bible is a better source to make laws than me because?

(joelsdad) Because it was in spired by God and mere mortals like you and I

(JerryLove) No, it's a fictional work written by generation after generation of clergy, rulers, and self-titled prophets attempting to bend the populus to their respective wills.

(Me) Pulling this kind of a maneuver -- and especially with this vitriolic of rhetoric -- is going to turn this issue into a non-starter quickly. If you want to go down this road, you've rendered the discussion worthless.

Moreover, if you keep talking about the Bible like this, your posts are going to get edited. The same will happen to any other crap like this (e.g., I'm not going to let them personally attack you, if you complain about it). It's not an argument -- it's just an expression of an opinion. And, when you're expressing your opinion and not arguing, don't use this kind of spiteful language.

[joelsdad]

ATHEISTS ARE PERSECUTED, AND CHRISTIANS DO PERSECUTE ATHEISTS. That is what I orginally posted, and where you started your (unfortunately typical) chain of topic-changes to avoid accounting.

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html

web sites showing teen pregnancy rates different from Jerrys (not by much but peaking in the early 90s then a decline)

No, it's a fictional work written by generation after generation of clergy, rulers, and self-titled prophets attempting to bend the populus to their respective wills.

Well Jerry, seeing how you love to demand support for claims--cite your proof the bible is just what you said.

And often would-be now; but you are ignoring the issue... you lied again.

Nope didn't lie teen marriage rates as a % of ten population is far lower than the 17 and 1800's--I will not waste my tiome getting the "proof" as most of it is from "religious" sources which you would reject out of hand.

And what would that definition be? And where is the study?

Read Walter Martins book Kingdom of the Cults--His definition is the accepted definition by most of evangelical, fundamewntal and charismatic Christian sects.

But look at the segments of our society that commit the crimes and the vast majority of them are the secular segment or the nominally religious segment or the cultic segment. I am not inferrinfg that bible beleiving Christians commit no crime, but it is a far lower rate than other segments.

You ask for a cite and it is forthcoming ( I am awaiting aan email) but it is from Chuck Colsons Prison Fellowship ministries--will you accept their studies and research or just scream bias?

Why is irellevent... you were claiming abortions were bad because of Pose-abortion depression... under your logic births are bad because of post-birth depression.

Here you adding words to my mouth--the why is very relevant. PPD is a natural byproduct of birth while PASS iis an introduced emotionasl trauma

In *this* thread genius.

Well I am glad you cleared that up. for you ad hominum attacks both oin me and other benighted Christians on nearly every other thread you have written on are very numerous.

That's bull-pucky and you know it. "Rain from now on" was not a command.

Yes I do, but if you can so blatantly pull a verse out of its context and try to twist it past the point of recognition, I figured so would I. God did command it to rain--not forever but for forty days. God also did command Sabbath violators to be stoned--not forever but during the Israeli theocracy in the OT. those laws were fulfilled and rendered null and void. It never was an eternal command "and you know it"! If you don't I urge you take a hermeneutics course so you do not pull verses out of their context.

ATHEISTS ARE PERSECUTED, AND CHRISTIANS DO PERSECUTE ATHEISTS. That is what I orginally posted, and where you started your (unfortunately typical) chain of topic-changes to avoid accounting.

I did address this and agreed that this was true. the rest has sprung from this original topic. If the topiuc changes after I admitted that Christians have and still do persecute atheists were so wrong why did you continue to chase them?

How about you come up with 1-2 now?

Ok.

#1 Punishment for theft or embezzlement-- four fold restitution of monies wrongfully gained in stead of jail time. Luke 19:8 Results--victims made whole as oppossed to todays laws where victims rarely reimbursed for lossed incurred. Theft and extortion (especially on corparate levels ) would tend to be reduced.


#2 Romans 2:6 letting the punishment fit the crime. And punishment according to crime. Pertinent example- Martha Stewart--with potential sentence she faces--the Enron and Imcom and adelphia folk should face far far worse.


#3 Matt. 5:25-26 Being responsible for your own debts--making it h arder to go bankrupt and be required (if by garnishing wages) to pay down debts.

#4 Matt 5:31-32- making divorce for serious cause ( actually a return to older laws) and just not no faults and like Oregon- mailing in divorce requests. Result keeping families together, requiring help for families in trouble --this law needs to be coupled with Eph 4 where we must reintroduce respect in relationships.

Four for now more later.

[joelsdad]

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/mediasvc/connections/MayJune2003/saluting_v10no5.html

excellent article showing large reduction in recidivism rated between those in Christian faith based programs versus those who did not participate while incarcerated

[JerryLove]

Pulling this kind of a maneuver -- and especially with this vitriolic of rhetoric -- is going to turn this issue into a non-starter quickly. If you want to go down this road, you've rendered the discussion worthless.

I think Joelsdad's already done that quite well or I would not have gone down that road to begin with.

Moreover, if you keep talking about the Bible like this, your posts are going to get edited. The same will happen to any other crap like this (e.g., I'm not going to let them personally attack you, if you complain about it). It's not an argument -- it's just an expression of an opinion. And, when you're expressing your opinion and not arguing, don't use this kind of spiteful language.

That was not spiteful.

[JerryLove]

web sites showing teen pregnancy rates different from Jerrys (not by much but peaking in the early 90s then a decline)

That's beacause they only cover 1986-1996... you asserted the 1800s, then the 1950s... both had signifigantly higher rates of teen pregnancy than now.

Well Jerry, seeing how you love to demand support for claims--cite your proof the bible is just what you said.

You first... OTOH, are you disputing that clergy (say Paul), rulers (Constantine), and prophets (Moses) wrote the Bible?

Nope didn't lie teen marriage rates as a % of ten population is far lower than the 17 and 1800's--I will not waste my tiome getting the "proof" as most of it is from "religious" sources which you would reject out of hand.

That's an excuse... but also not the point. You said teen pregnancy rates were higher.. they are not... you lied.

Read Walter Martins book Kingdom of the Cults--His definition is the accepted definition by most of evangelical, fundamewntal and charismatic Christian sects.

And is the KKK fundamentalist or charismatic? And where is the study?

You ask for a cite and it is forthcoming ( I am awaiting aan email) but it is from Chuck Colsons Prison Fellowship ministries--will you accept their studies and research or just scream bias?

That all depends on their study... when I see their methodology I'll let you know if it's valid.

Here you adding words to my mouth--the why is very relevant. PPD is a natural byproduct of birth while PASS iis an introduced emotionasl trauma

Both are "natrual byproducts", and both are "induced"... you make a false distinction.

Well I am glad you cleared that up. for you ad hominum attacks both oin me and other benighted Christians on nearly every other thread you have written on are very numerous.

bite me... then get back on topic.

Yes I do, but if you can so blatantly pull a verse out of its context and try to twist it past the point of recognition, I figured so would I. God did command it to rain--not forever but for forty days. God also did command Sabbath violators to be stoned--not forever but during the Israeli theocracy in the OT.

Please cite book and verse where God said "until Isreal is conqured by the Babylonians", or something fundamentally similar.

Your not pulling out of context... you are simply inventing text to suit your needs.

If you don't I urge you take a hermeneutics course so you do not pull verses out of their context.

This from the person complaining that people who interprete the Bible based on outside sources are not Christians? How many courses have you taken and books have you read that let you know what the bible means?

Four for now more later.

Luke 19:8: But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

This is a depictions of the personal actions of Zacchaeus, this is not a command on how to run a government.

Romans 2:6: God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

I don't see how you managed to even streach your mind into a belief this is a command on how to run a government.

Matt 5:25-26: "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.

A warning to an individual of what might happen in court... not a command on how to run a government.

Matt 5:31: "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[6] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Says that divorcing is a sin... again, no mention of governmental law.

Instead of more later, how about giving me the first one. Give me a NT passage with instruction on how to run a governemnt.

ellent article showing large reduction in recidivism rated between those in Christian faith based programs versus those who did not participate while incarcerated

Programs work... I'll lay money that Muslim and Hindu, and Secular programs also work... for example

http://www.gsaca.com/stats.htm

A site showing a 75% reduction in juvinal arrests where a secular program was available.

[joelsdad]

That all depends on their study... when I see their methodology I'll let you know if it's valid.

Well Jerry if you were completely objective I could accpet this, but seeing how you dislike Christianity(genewrally speaking) I know if you dislike thewir conclusions yuou would fault their methodology.

And is the KKK fundamentalist or charismatic? And where is the study?

They are neither. the study is in the text. and by the way it is not a study but a declaration, which you hate.

Both are "natrual byproducts", and both are "induced"... you make a false distinction.

Wrong Jerry, ask an ob s/gyn and then ask a psych they will tell you that both have both PPD is mostly physiological and PASS is mostly psychological for its worse implications occur months and years afterwards as the study I posted showed.

bite me... then get back on topic.

I don't do raw meat sorry. :klol: :klol:

This from the person complaining that people who interprete the Bible based on outside sources are not Christians? How many courses have you taken and books have you read that let you know what the bible means?

Will you always twist my words because you dislike me? How many books on evolution did you read? What does that have to do with anything. I study greek and Hebrew to understand the bible better, I study the science of hermeneutice to understand conceptual language better and yes I even read systematic hteologies and doctrinal discourses. I don't agree with everything of the latter but study anyway. I am not infgallible but understand when cults like the KKK try to add to scripture to try to prove their bias. Just like I know that you rcomment on stoning Sabbath violators was meant to be eternal is a falsehood. That one was easy.

his is a depictions of the personal actions of Zacchaeus, this is not a command on how to run a government

And I did not say tha the New Testament gave specific commands for establishing government, I did say that the New Testament gave principles that would establish better government. Their is a difference.

I think Joelsdad's already done that quite well or I would not have gone down that road to begin with.

Thank you Jerry!

et me reiterate the important part... GRADUATES OF THE PROGRAM... this is not a statistical sampling of religious vs non-religious inmates... this discusses the effacy of an intervention program as opposed to those not participating... it does nothing for your assertion.

It does much for my assertion, it shows those who actively pursue Christianity in prision ( as demonstrated by their participoation in the program) show lower rates of recidivism than those who do not participate in Christian faith based programs. Besides I also gave other websites showing other states with other programs with the same reduced recidivism rates.