[Clark Kent]

Hello,

I stumbled upon this guys website and was just curious if anyone else has looked at his theology. Interesting to say the least. Im particularly interested in how he has merged Arminian and Calvinist viewpoints, and also about hell and eternity.

Heres the link if anyone is interested: Martinzender.com


God Bless,

Clark

[Travis]

Originally posted by Clark Kent
Im particularly interested in how he has merged Arminian and Calvinist viewpoints

Impossible to do consistantly and Biblically.

[brown07]

Another Author looking to sell books by telling people what they want to hear...

It gets so old.

Prayer of Jabez - Bruce Wilkinson
How to Quit Church - Martin Zender
How to Have Lots of PreMarital Christian Sex - The Soon to Be Best-Seller by Me (I Guarantee I could sell 100,000 copies of it - isn't that sick? And most would be to Youth Group kids.)

Maybe I should write a parody book with that title - I could sell lots of copies to unsuspecting kids... then once they finish the book, they'll realize my point is to parody the idea of moral premarital sex.

[Chrysostom]

Zender is, more or less, a Calvinist gone awry (with the exception of the doctrines of judgment, he affirms Calvinism). I read about half his articles, and I honestly didn't see any trace of Arminianism. However, I found a lot of problems with what he says. I want to point to a few things:

1. "Then Pap dies again (Rev. 20:13-15). But that ain’t the end of the line. Like I told you, Jesus eventually does away with death (1 Cor. 15:26). It’s at that time that Pap comes out of the second death, justified (Rom. 5:18) and reconciled (Col. 1:20) to God."

In other words, Zender thinks that everybody will eventually be saved. He holds, more or less, the same view as a man named Origen, and Origen was attacked for centuries because of this view. The Scriptures teach eternal punishment for the reprobate. He recognizes this, and here is his response:

2. "No two words in the history of man have been so tortured as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world."

"The ineptness of the orthodox translators can be easily verified. Look up the words "ages," "world," "eternal," "everlasting" and "forever" in either a Strong’s or a Young’s concordance. (These reference tools list every word in the King James Version and their source word from the original languages.) You will find that these words, a veritable hodge-podge, are all interpretations of this single Greek noun (aion) and its adjective."

In Strong's, we have:
aion
1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. the worlds, universe
3. period of time, age

NAS Word Usage - Total: 95
age 20, ages 6, ancient time 1, beginning of time 1, course 1, eternal 2, eternity 1, ever* 2, forever 27, forever and ever 20, forevermore 2, long ago 1, never* 1, old 1, time 1, world 7, worlds 1

Aionios
1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

NAS Word Usage - Total: 68
eternal 66, eternity 1, forever 1

I find it very strange that we can look at all scholarship (e.g., Robertson, Kittel, Bauer, Strong, Young, etc.) and get absolute agreement, while Zender thinks he can "prove" them wrong by assertion. Nowhere does he give an argument to find his idiosyncratic translation correct. No Greek lexicon of any type is mentioned -- secular or Christian. Perhaps, if all the Christians are busy twisting the words (as he claims), the secular accounts would properly define and translate these kinds of these. However, he doesn't mention anything other than his own feelings.

According to my Greek-English dictionary (written by Oxford, a secular resource), aionios means 'forever' and 'eternal.' It would appear that every credible scholar on Earth disagrees with Zender.

3. "The phrase "go to church" is not to be found anywhere in the Scriptures. Oh, and this: Jesus Christ Himself is not a member of the Christian religion."

Actually, Christ worked hard to build His Church (Matthew 16:18), and He Himself is the cornerstone of the Church (Ephesians 2:20). He has adequately equipped members of His Church with gifts for His Church (Ephesians 4:11; 1 Corinthians 12:28).

Paul delivers instruction for orderly worship in a church service (1 Corinthians 11-14). Paul writes many of his letters directly to churches, refers to many churches in those letters (e.g., Romans 16:1, 5; 1 Corinthians 16:19; Philemon 1:2), and suggests that his letters be read in other churches (Colossians 4:16). Paul describes church government in detail in places like 1 Timothy. The seven letters in Revelation (starting in Revelation 2) are written to seven churches.

James stresses church government in ministry (James 5:14). The Apostles were organized in a church format (Acts 13:1). An early dispute was resolved through an organized church structure (Acts 15). Zender's view is assumed wrong in most every page of the Scripture, and by every one of God's messengers whose acts are recorded in the Scripture.

Indeed, Christ was a Christian, and worked very hard to set up Christianity. We read that His "disciples were first called Christians" in Antioch (Acts 11:26). As Zender affirms the authority of the Scripture, he must accept that Christianity comes from Christ (or, at least, from Christ's direct disciples).

[brown07]

"and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near."

Well, an assembly is essentially a church, more or less, particularly as that's how the original audience would have understood it.

Not only are we not to forsake it (as Zender is in the habit of doing), but we are to be committed to it and each other more and more as time passes.

Again, any moron can get lots of attention by telling people what they want to hear and saying things that are different than what you usually hear regarding spiritual things. That's exactly what he's doing.

[Chrysostom]

What is the reference for that verse? I was trying to find it like crazy!

[+Donny]

It should be in Hebrews 13.

If not, then it moved.

[brown07]

Hebrews 10:24-25.

Sorry, forgot to reference it.

If you studied your Navigator Topical Memory System, like all good evangelicals, then you would have known that.

[Chrysostom]

I read through about two-thirds of Hebrews. I think that Hebrews 10 is the only place that I didn't look. Haha Thx Mike for havin' my back!

[+Donny]

i found it in e-sword..

mike's just a know-it-all.:ktongue:

[brown07]

BTW -

I highly recommend the NAVS TMS (Topical Memory System).

It's a great way to get a solid base of scripture locked into your head and, for those who aren't already, get into the habit of memorizing scripture.

[Travis]

Originally posted by Donny
i found it in e-sword..

Is that code for "asked Travis and he told me"?

[Chrysostom]

OH owned.

[exo]

I guess this guy also doesn't get what an analogy is in terms of the body of the church... well he basically just skipped over all of 1 Corinithias 12.

It's totally amazing to me that people like this even exist. It's like me teaching that Jesus wasn't crucified or that there weren't 12 apostles or that we shouldn't love God. It's just ridiculous.

Oh yes, and that was very nice OWNAGE.

[eldestofvic]

originally posted by Brown07
"and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near."

Hey. Are you still talking about Martin Zender or is this the beginning of research into your upcoming book?

Pax Christi