The Word is made...Fish?

Yojimbo · 03-16-2003, 01:37 PM

My favorite part is how the guy ends up killing and then selling the fish. I wonder what God tastes like in fish-form?

Word is made flesh as God reveals himself... as a fish

Edward Helmore New York
Sunday March 16, 2003
The Observer

An obscure Jewish sect in New York has been gripped in awe by what it believes to be a mystical visitation by a 20lb carp that was heard shouting in Hebrew, in what many Jews worldwide are hailing as a modern miracle.
Many of the 7,000-member Skver sect of Hasidim in New Square, 30 miles north of Manhattan, believe God has revealed himself in fish form.

According to two fish-cutters at the New Square Fish Market, the carp was about to be slaughtered and made into gefilte fish for Sabbath dinner when it suddenly began shouting apocalyptic warnings in Hebrew.

Many believe the carp was channelling the troubled soul of a revered community elder who recently died; others say it was God. The only witnesses to the mystical show were Zalmen Rosen, a 57-year-old Hasid with 11 children, and his co-worker, Luis Nivelo. They say that on 28 January at 4pm they were about to club the carp on the head when it began yelling.

Nivelo, a Gentile who does not understand Hebrew, was so shocked at the sight of a fish talking in any language that he fell over. He ran into the front of the store screaming: 'It's the Devil! The Devil is here!' Then the shop owner heard it shouting warnings and commands too.

'It said "Tzaruch shemirah" and "Hasof bah",' he told the New York Times, 'which essentially means that everyone needs to account for themselves because the end is near.'

The animated carp commanded Rosen to pray and study the Torah. Rosen tried to kill the fish but injured himself. It was finally butchered by Nivelo and sold.

However, word spread far and wide and Nivelo complains he has been plagued by phone calls from as far away as London and Israel. The story has since been amplified by repetition and some now believe the fish's outburst was a warning about the dangers of the impending war in Iraq.

Some say they fear the born-again President Bush believes he is preparing the world for the Second Coming of Christ, and war in Iraq is just the opening salvo in the battle of Armageddon.

Local resident Abraham Spitz said: 'Two men do not dream the same dream. It is very rare that God reminds people he exists in this modern world. But when he does, you cannot ignore it.'

Others in New Square discount the apocalyptic reading altogether and suggest the notion of a talking fish is as fictional as Tony Soprano's talking-fish dream in an episode of The Sopranos .

Stand-up comedians have already incorporated the carp into their comedy routines at weddings. One gefilte company has considered changing it's slogan to: 'Our fish speaks for itself.'

Still, the shouting carp corresponds with the belief of some Hasidic sects that righteous people can be reincarnated as fish. They say that Nivelo may have been selected because he is not Jewish, but a weary Nivelo told the New York Times : 'I wish I never said anything about it. I'm getting so many calls every day, I've stopped answering. Israel, London, Miami, Brooklyn. They all want to hear about the talking fish.'

A devout Christian, he still thinks the carp was the Devil. 'I don't believe any of this Jewish stuff. But I heard that fish talk.'

He's grown tired of the whole thing. 'It's just a big headache for me,' he added. 'I pull my phone out of the wall at night. I don't sleep and I've lost weight.'

guitarplayer4jc · 03-16-2003, 02:17 PM

Fascinating.

Daniel Horney · 03-16-2003, 02:22 PM

Quote:

A devout Christian, he still thinks the carp was the Devil. 'I don't believe any of this Jewish stuff. But I heard that fish talk.'

how can you be a christian and not believe any of this jewish stuff....

Yojimbo · 03-16-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheDanish
how can you be a christian and not believe any of this jewish stuff....

Well, he was probably referring to the Skver/Hasidic belief that a righteous person is reincarnated as a fish, or God becoming a fish

Insane Drummer · 03-16-2003, 07:07 PM

now thats just um... a little ... weird...

OliveShoot90 · 03-16-2003, 07:17 PM

wow

Dice · 03-16-2003, 09:29 PM

That is an interesting story. Now lets get back to the two greatest commandments.

Yojimbo · 03-16-2003, 11:56 PM

I thought the idea that Bush is going to war with Iraq to kickoff the events of Armageddon was interesting. Who thinks Bush is a LaHayist?

Bryan · 03-17-2003, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goodness
I thought the idea that Bush is going to war with Iraq to kickoff the events of Armageddon was interesting. Who thinks Bush is a LaHayist?

***raises hand***

Benny Hicks · 03-17-2003, 12:45 PM

Wait...I thought everyone heard fish talk? Am I really the only one that has fish that talk to me on a regular basis?

Ben

Lyle · 03-17-2003, 05:28 PM

It sounds a little, well, fishy to me. But then again stranger things have happened. Once in about 600 and something this Christian was in prison when an angel came and gave him a message. He was to be killed the following day by thr removal of his head, as the judge had ordered. But the message willplay as follows.

They brought him up to the pole (I guessed that's what they used). And got ready, yet they asked him if he had one final request, to which he answered them as the angel had told him. He asked that his hat be placed by his feet in this certain spot then allowed them to continue. The blow fell and so did the head, it fell right into the hat and burst into laughter. The moon turned red like blood as some reported, the sun went black as night and the water's turned into blood...

Then there's another story of a man who was beheaded, and has the blow fell, the executers nose fell off.

Though if this fish was God, I don't know why He would say to read the Torah when He's given His completed word that gives the way to eternal life... If you know what i mean

guitarplayer4jc · 03-17-2003, 07:08 PM

That story sounds a bit outlandish to me...

GORP006 · 03-17-2003, 10:17 PM

maybe it's a lack of faith, but I find this story a little unbelieveable. I know that God can work Miracles, but I'm not sure this is how He would accomplish that. From everything I've read, the people who have had close encouters with the divine have almost always been in the form of an angel, or during a dream, or in some other supernatural way. I haven't heard of God speaking through an Animal before, but maybe I just haven't heard all the stories. However, the nature of a fish speaking would be difficult, since a fish lacks vocal cords, lungs, a tongue, or the ability to muster any sort of utterance in or out of the water. Maybe that is the miracle in and of itself, but it seems that this is a rather unorthodox way for God to contact us.

Any insight from anybody regarding the use of animals as instruments of prophecy would be appreciated, because I personally have not heard of any cases myself.

Adam

**Ted Logan** · 03-18-2003, 10:22 AM

You asked for it...

Quote:

Num 22:21-31
21 Balaam got up in the morning, saddled his donkey and went with the princes of Moab.
22 But God was very angry when he went, and the angel of the LORD stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.
23 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, she turned off the road into a field. Balaam beat her to get her back on the road.
24 Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between two vineyards, with walls on both sides.
25 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam's foot against it. So he beat her again.
26 Then the angel of the LORD moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left.
27 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat her with his staff.
28 Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"
29 Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now."
30 The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?" "No," he said.
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.
(NIV)

At any rate, I don't believe this story to be true at all. I have no reason to believe it. The message is false, and the Hasidim are a bizarre group anyway.

Lyle · 03-18-2003, 11:40 AM

Ohhh don't get me wrong, I know that fish talk. They've talked to me, I caught one and it said "you little..." I can't tell you anymore of what he said because I'm not allowed to.
And I saw a thing at Wal-Mart where you puch the button and the bottom of the stand the fish starts singing.