Patriotism

brown07 · 03-04-2003, 09:00 PM

A subject brought up at alwaysreforming.com...

What are your thoughts on patriotism and our faith as Christians?

Is there any basis for us to demonstrate favoritism toward your own country in terms of use of resources, etc?

Travis · 03-04-2003, 10:04 PM

A good question for this could be the following:

What if, instead of only seeing the Jew on the side of the road, the Good Samaritan sees on one side, the Jew, beaten and left for dead, and on the other side sees a Samaritan in the exact same position. What if he can only take one with him on his donkey and therefore must choose between the two? Would it be permissable to choose the Samaritan because he is a compatriot?

barefooter · 03-04-2003, 10:42 PM

We are to submit to our governemnt, but that doesn't mean that we have to venerate the flag, know the secret message hidden in all three national anthems when they are played backwards, or eat only USDA approved eggs.

Travis · 03-04-2003, 11:02 PM

Well, the question of whether patriotism is required is one question, but it is certainly not the only one.

We're Christians so we are believers in some type of universal morality. We'll presuppose that and thus eleminate one or two of the possible conclusions....

Possible conclusions left:

1. Patriotism rendered a duty by universal morality (it is required).
2. Patriotism is allowed by universal morality but not required.
3. Patriotism is prohibited by universal morality.
4. Patriotism is allowed under universal morality only insofar as it conforms to it (this is shot down rather easily unless you take the next route...)
5. There is a gray area of neutral morality within universal morality in which both possible choices are neither right nor wrong (but is this compatible with Christian ethics?).

I dunno. This is a tough one.

Feel free to post ideas and opinions though.

Raphael · 03-05-2003, 02:30 AM

Who cares?

Ok now I'll explain what I mean by that. The average American's level of patriotism does make it seem to us outsiders like you almost worship the state.

Here in South Africa patriotism only comes into the play if we're winning the cricket or the rugby. Otherwise it gets shelved.

I don't think Patriotism is ever even touched on in the Bible. submitting to the governments authority is, but that has nothing to do with patriotism.

***Art*** · 03-05-2003, 04:33 AM

Raphael - We Americans are not quite as patriotic as we seem. Not most Americans. I root for my country in Athletic events, especially the olympics... but a big part of that is that, 1, I was born here and plan to live her for the rest of my life... and 2, I know and live near many of the athletes, including a few that were in my high school graduating class. I personally love my country, but I really don't think it's as widespread as it seems. Canada is FAR more patriotic.

t.j · 03-05-2003, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Raphael
Who cares?

Ok now I'll explain what I mean by that. The average American's level of patriotism does make it seem to us outsiders like you almost worship the state.

It seems that way to some of us up here too. The problem I have with patriotism, at least as defined since 9/11, is that it is usually a feeling of pride rather than gratitude. As an American, and a Christian, I understand what I have here and I'm grateful that God made me an American. But I do not like the "I'm proud to be an American" attitude that runs through this country (and is fueled by our president). It's almost as if, instead of responding with humility and graciousness, Americans responded with a "How dare they!" attitude.

Quote:

Here in South Africa patriotism only comes into the play if we're winning the cricket or the rugby. Otherwise it gets shelved.

Great point. And Art echoes this, although I don't think he meant to. Most Americans are "patriotic" about all the wrong things. They are prideful of their heritage, but have only a small amount of patriotism for competition. During the Olympics, some of us may get a little emotional about our American athletes. But, truth be told, most of the Americans I've met would be just as happy to see a good hearted Canadian or South African win gold as an American. Art is right, Canada is way more patriotic than America is. Ask a Canadian if they'd be happy with a silver in Olympic hockey. No way. Not a chance. They are crazily patriotic about things like that.

Travis · 03-05-2003, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Raphael
Who cares?

I do. I don't appreciate you coming into my thread and acting as though I asked a stupid question. It's not a stupid question. This is an extremely tough question for philosophers today and I want to know the Christian position. If you think it's stupid or irrelevant you are free to stay the heck out of the thread.

Quote:

Originally posted by Raphael
Ok now I'll explain what I mean by that. The average American's level of patriotism does make it seem to us outsiders like you almost worship the state.

Here in South Africa patriotism only comes into the play if we're winning the cricket or the rugby. Otherwise it gets shelved.

I don't see how this explains your comment of "who cares?" at all.

Quote:

Originally posted by Raphael
I don't think Patriotism is ever even touched on in the Bible.

Maybe not explicitly, but we can know for sure that it teaches principles that can be applied:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

If patriotism is a good work, we can find Biblical teaching on it. If it is not, then the avoidance of patriotism is a good work and we can find some sort of Biblical teaching on it. One way or the other God's Word will provide us with an answer to all ethical questions.

king · 03-05-2003, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Travis
I do. I don't appreciate you coming into my thread and acting as though I asked a stupid question

Not to be argumentative or anything, but at what point did this become your thread... being that Brown07 started it?

SoccerAaron · 03-05-2003, 11:08 AM

Because he was the one that started the thread at alwaysreforming.
Brown07 was just re-asking his question here.

king · 03-05-2003, 11:11 AM

I AM SO STUPID!!!! GAH!

IDIOT!

BLASTED CONVOLUTED GENETIC FAILURE!

(Read it in a Chris Farley Voice while looking at my Avatar.)

Tony · 03-05-2003, 11:22 AM

Psalm 33 encourages a nation to be faithful to God. So I supposed if that were the case, then being a patriot to a nation whose God is the Lord (v12) would be a good thing.

Would you say that God is the Lord of America?

Travis · 03-05-2003, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tonyh
Would you say that God is the Lord of America?

Well in a sense yes (because He is Lord over all), but not really. Our nation as a whole certainly does not recognize Him as such, nor do they live as though He is.

Tony · 03-05-2003, 01:23 PM

So if He is not Lord of America, would we be un-christian if we were un-patriotic?

I'm not finding other scriptures to address this. Has anyone else?

Dr. Doom · 03-05-2003, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Travis
2. Patriotism is allowed by universal morality but not required.

i'd probably say this is the option i would most likely agree with. personally, i am not a big patriot. at least, not in the typical sense. from what i gather, most people who are considered patriots are just prideful about their country, have flags and what not and blindly follow whatever "patriotic" song they are told to sing at sporting events. to me, that is the widespread definition of "patriotism" in current america.

or mayhaps i am just tied of people at Tech LITERALLY saying "We are America, and we need to go kick *** to show them who is the bost and who is best." seriously, i have heard numerous people say almost those exact words.