[Nate]

Originally posted by JrnymnNate
Progressive Rock method, if you don't mind

I can try, although it's not really my forte. I may have to a little bit of listening before I can really say anything for sure.

In His love,
Nate

[PianoMan]

I'm going for the type that Fred Williams does in Jeff Deyo's band. (He's awesome if you haven't heard him.)

Anyway, probably the kind of stuff I want to know is how to integrate things like the strings into the music, and a bit on how to use regular piano in P&W music stuff. (I read the threads you recommeneded and they were a big help! Just want to expand on them a bit)

[Nate]

Ok, I should have the next hour or two free, so I decided to finally take a crack at this. Expect a very long post, so you had better have an hour or two free as well.

First of all, I'm going to rehash a few more basic things that I haven't touched on yet. Forgive me if this is all review for everybody.

Keys/Chord substitution/Simple voice leading
To me, it is crucial to understand both what chords are included in any given key and what chords can be substituted for other chords.

In any given major key, you have the possibility of three different major chords. They fall on the first, fourth, and fifth scale degrees and are referred to by the uppercase Roman numerals I, IV, and V respectively. In the key of D major, this works out to D, G, and A major; in the key of F major, it is F, Bb, and C major; etc.

Also, in any given major key, you have the possibility of three different minor chords. These chords fall on the second, third, and sixth scale degrees and are referred to by the lowercase Roman numerals ii, iii, and vi respectively. In the key of C major, this works out to Dm, Em, and Am. The minor chord that falls on the sixth scale degree (vi) is considered to be the "relative minor" of the major chord that falls on the first scale degree (I).

Here is your first lesson in chord substitution: 90% of the time, you can safely substitute the vi chord for the I chord and vice-versa. Also, if you use the vi chord with an added minor seventh (i.e. a m7 chord), the possibility of a good substitution is even more likely. So, in the key of C major, if you had the chord progression C, F, G, F, C, F, G. You could substitute an Am or Am7 for either of the C's; the second one would probably work better as the first C is sort of necessary to establish the C major tonal center.

The final chord in any given major key is based on the seventh scale degree and works out to be a diminished chord; it is referred to by the lowercase Roman numeral viio (the o is supposed to be superscript, but I don't know the HTML or VBB code). The vii has a strong tendency to lead back to the tonic (the chord built on the first scale degree. If you play through the rest of the diatonic chords, you will also notice that the V chord has a similar tendency. The vii chord can usually be substituted for the V chord. So, for example, if you had the chord progression I listed above: C, F, G, F, C, F, G (and let's continue), G, C. You could substitute a Bdim for the last G. It would look like this: C, F, G, F, C, F, G, Bdim, C.

Another way to add variety to a chord progression is through the use of chord inversions. In modern chord notation, inversions are notated by the use of a slash: G/B, C/G, etc. This simply means that you play the chord notated by the letter before the slash, but use the note notated by the letter after the slash as the bass note (the lowest sounding pitch). If the note after the slash is a member of the chord before the slash, it is basically an inversion that is notated. However, you can also have bass notes notated that are not part of chord notated: such as G/E, C/B, etc. Usually, these are used in conjunction with a non-slash chord to notate a moving bass line. So, for example: If you had the same chord progression again (C, F, G, F, C, F, G, G, C) you could substitute either a few slash chords to change the sound of the progression. It might look like this: C/E, F, G, F, C/E, F/D, G/C, G/B, C. You will notice that the overall harmonic structure remains reasonably intact, but the bass line is drastically changed; it now moves only in steps.

If you take all three of these substitution formulas and incorporate them, you could transform the boring progression C, F, G, F, C, F, G, G, C into something really kicking like C, F, G, Am-Am/B, C, F, G-G/A, Bdim, C.

Now, you may be saying "What in the world does this have to do with playing rock and roll keyboard???" Well, in short, part of playing keyboard is being able to add flavor, movement, and variety to simple chord progressions. This helps a lot when playing with sounds such as synth pads, strings, (and maybe even organs) which usually play more chordal and harmonic stuff rather than melodic stuff. It is good to be able to make these changes to "spice up" a song, just make sure you let the rest of the band know what you're doing.

Ok, I think I'm satisfied now with my coverage of basic theory stuff, so I'll try to move on now.

I think the first thing somebody asked about was suspended chords, so let me go over those.

Suspended chords

A suspended chord, in modern terminology, is simply a chord (usually major) where the third has been taken out and replaced with another note. As far as I know, the only possible replacements for the third are the second and fourth; the chords generated by these replacements are termed sus2 and sus4, respectively. When you see a sus all by itself with no number, it is referring to a sus4 chord. So, for example: A Dsus4 chord would include the notes D, G, and A instead of the D, F#, and A of a D major chord; a Csus2 chord would include the notes C, D, and G instead of the C, E, and G of a C major chord; and an Fsus chord would include the notes F, Bb, and C instead of the F, A, and C of an F major chord.

Usually, when you find a suspended chord in a chord progression, it is intended to resolve to the major (or occasionally minor) chord that it was derived from. So, for example: If you found a Dsus chord in a chord progression, you would usually see a D major chord immediately after it. Occasionally, however, the suspended chord will remain "unresolved", meaning that it does not move to the chord it was derived from. A good example of this is found in the song Better Is One Day in which the chord progression for the verse is E for two measures followed by Bsus for two measures.

Another interesting thing to note about suspended chords is that some sus4 chords include the same exact notes as some sus2 chords. Take a look at Dsus4 and Gsus2, for example: Dsus4 is D, G, and A; while Gsus2 is G, A, and D. Changing between two suspended chords that relate in this manner produces a very interesting effect. This effect is used in a couple of songs including Did You Feel The Mountains Tremble: The progression used between nearly every section of the song is Csus2, Gsus. It is a very driving effect that adds a lot of motion.

You can use suspended chords as substitutes for normal major chords quite often actually. For example (taking the same progression we've been working with): You could change C, F, G, F, C, F, G, G, C to something like C, F, G, F, C, F, Gsus, G, C or maybe something extreme like Csus, Fsus2, Gsus, Fsus2, Csus, Fsus2, Gsus, G, C. Note that only one of that whole mess of suspended chords actually resolves properly. The others incorporate the effect I just talked about. Csus is C, F, and G; Fsus2 is F, G, and C. You'll find that this sort of substitution adds a very contemporary sound to any progression; it works great for praise and worship stuff. I have done this sort of a substitution in an arrangement of Every Move I Make: I usually play Gsus, Csus2, D, Csus2 instead of G, C, D, C.

Again, with any of these substitutions, it's probably best to let the rest of the band know what you're doing.

Ok, that takes care of suspended chords, moving right along. The next question, I believe, was what the difference between piano and keyboard "style" is. Sooo....

Playing piano vs. playing keyboard (or, playing classical vs. playing contemporary)

This is a very deep question, and I don't hope or expect to even scratch the surface of a comprehensive answer, but I will try my best.

When I think about "playing piano", I usually think about playing classical or playing hymns. When I think about "playing keyboard", I usually think about playing praise and worship or playing modern rock.

So, what are the differences between these two??

Well, here's a semi-comprehensive list:

1) Classical music and hymns usually do not incorporate much syncopation, whereas praise and worship and modern rock usually use nothing BUT syncopation. In short, this means that whereas in playing classical music and hymns, you will try your best to stay on top of the beat and maintain rhythmic consistency, you have much more rhythmic freedom when playing praise and worship or modern rock. A good example of this is to look at an arrangement in any hymnal; you will notice that every single voice (left hand and right hand; bass, tenor, alto, and soprano) move simultaneously. Basically, in hymns, you play one chord per beat and both of your hands play together. You rarely do this in praise and worship or modern rock. Try to get used to playing your left hand and right hand independently of each other. Try this: pick a chord, any chord; now, play an octave of the root in your left hand and play a basic root position triad in your right hand. Now, play them both together in a constant stream of quarter notes. You will notice that this does not sound very contemporary. Now play the left hand in quarter notes for awhile (without the right hand). After you get a nice steady tempo going, try adding the right hand triad on every upbeat. This will probably sound like a bad polka, but that's ok. Now, try playing the same thing in your left hand, but playing the right hand on the first sixteenth note after the left hand hits. So, instead of sounding like "one", LH - "te", RH - "two", LH - "te", RH - it should sound like "one", LH - "ta", RH -- "two", LH - "ta", RH --. Now that you've got the independence part down (hopefully), let's try to spice things up a little. Think of a song that you like and preferably one that you know the chord progression to. Try to hear the rhythm guitar part in your head. Get a feel for how the strumming pattern goes. Try to hear the rhythm, rather than the harmony or the melody; modern music is heavily rhythmic. Now, go to your keyboard and do this same basic exercise involving a pair of octaves in your left hand and a root position triad in your right hand, but this time try to emulate the rhythmic sound of the rhythm guitar part. Whereas a guitarist would be thinking "down, up, down, up, up... down", you might be thinking "left hand and right hand, right hand only, left hand only, right hand only, left hand and right hand... right hand." This is one of the hardest things there is to explain, but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say. This rhythmic strum-like playing is usually dubbed "comping"; mastering it is a major part of learning to play modern keyboard style.

2) Hymns and simple classical music are usually very simple harmonically; advanced classical music uses lots of chord substitutions, but they are nothing like the ones I described above; but a good modern keyboard player should be very adept at modern chord substitution and harmonic adaptation. Modern harmony is very different from the kind of harmony you would see in say, a Bach chorale. Voicing is crucial in modern music. Anybody can see the chord progression (here it is again) C, F, G, F, C, F, G, G, and C and sit down and play those chords; it takes a good keyboardist to be able to make that progression into something that fits the mood they are trying to convey with the song. Besides the things that I listed above, here are a few more things that help to add variety to your voicings.

a) Use add9 chords. An add9 chord is formed simply how its name implies, by adding the ninth. So, for example: Cadd9 would be C major with an added ninth; C, D (the ninth), E, and G. Go play a few add9 chords along with their normal counterparts. You will notice that they have a very contemporary sound. You can use this effectively in praise and worship, as well as in other types of modern music. This is one substitution that you usually don't have to inform the rest of the band about because it doesn't really change the overall harmonic nature of the chord so much as it "adds" to it. Try playing the progression C, F, G, F, C, F, G, G, C (do you have it memorized yet?) and then playing the same progression adding the ninth to every chord. Now, this is obviously too much of a good thing, but hopefully you can hear the difference.

b) Use 7 chords. Hopefully you know how to form all three forms of 7 chords, but just in case, here's a quick run down. A m7 chord (minor 7) is formed by playing a minor chord and then adding the note a minor third above the fifth of the chord, or, to think in another direction, the seventh scale degree of the natural minor scale built on the root note of the chord. A 7 chord (dominant 7) is formed by playing a major chord and then adding the note a minor third above the fifth of the chord, or, in other words, the seventh scale degree of the major scale built on the root of the chord lowered one half-step. A maj7 chord (major 7) is formed by playing a major chord and then adding the note a major third above the fifth of the chord, or the seventh scale degree of the major scale built on the root of the chord. Quick examples of these formations: Am7 is A, C, E, and G; G7 is G, B, D, and F; and Cmaj7 is C, E, G, and B. These chords sound great on their own, but they really shine when used as substitutions for other chords. Try substituting a m7 for its relative major chord (i.e. Am7 for C), a 7 for its corresponding major (G7 for G), and a maj7 for either its corresponding major or the minor chord formed from the third, fifth, and seventh of the chord (Cmaj7 for either C or Em). So, using the same progression again: C, F, G, F, C, F, G, G, C could become C, F, G, Fmaj7, Am7, F, G, G7, C.

c) Use the chord substitutions I talked about above. Add suspended chords, add moving bass lines, etc.

So, throwing all three of these together, the progression C, F, G, F, C, F, G, G, C could potentially become something really cool like Cmaj7/E, Fadd9, Gsus, Fmaj7-Fmaj7/G, Am7-Am7/G, Fmaj7, G7-G7/A, Bdim, C. No guarantees that all of that would sound good together, as I'm not able to go and play it right now 'cause my keyboard is all the way upstairs; I'm just trying to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

3) When I think of playing piano, I think of nice long melodic ideas (phrases, they call them) accompanied by a harmonized bass part; but when I think of playing keyboard, I think of rhythmic, chordal playing with good voicings, with the occasional melodic lick interspersed between the chords. It is good to know your scales and such, but it is equally good to have your ear trained in such a manner that you can hear what you want to play and be able to play it. Try this: think of a song you like; try to hear the melody in your head. Now, go to your keyboard, pick a key to play in (it doesn't really matter which one), and try to recreate the melody. Can you do it?? How many times did you have to try it before you got it?? You ought to be able to recreate a simple melody (one with few accidentals, not very large leaps, etc) after about two or three attempts. Now, try this: Play a chord progression (C, F, G, F, C, F, G, G, C will work fine) with all of the chords in root postion. You will notice that you seem to be jumping around quite a bit. Play the progression again, but this time, emphasize the top note of each chord (should be fairly easy). Listen to the simple melody that you create (in this case, it would be G, C, D, C, G, C, D, D, C). Now, think of ways to embellish that melody; hear some different filler material in your head. Maybe you just want to play up the C scale to move yourself from the first G to the C that comes after it. Maybe after the D, you want to play a little melodic turn to bring you back down to C (maybe something like D, E, F, E, C). Take away all of the chords, and try to make a melodic phrase using only the top notes of the chords and adding filler in between them. Once you have this done, add the chords back in as accompaniment. You will probably find that you have to invert some of the chords in order to make your melody playable; this is a good thing.

4) Keep it simple stupid. While classical piano has lots of complicated musical ideas, most modern music is actually quite simple. When in doubt, simply "play the chords." Pick some nice voicings and focus primarily on the rhythm of your playing. Remember, most modern music is rhythmic, rather than melodic (want proof?? Just go to Guitar Center and ask to see their library of rhythm loops for ACID. Or pick up any CCM artist's songbook and take a look at the melody, you will probably find a lot of repeated notes and very few melodic leaps.)

Ok, I'm running out of characters, and I'm at a loss for what to talk about next. I hope this has been helpful, and I hope you're note asleep after reading it all.

I have yet to deal with progressive rock, playing string sounds, or Jeff Deyo's keyboardist. After I do a little bit of listening, I'll try to come back and post some more.

Please let me know if any of this has been helpful.

In His love,
Nate

[Nate]

ATTENTION users looking for posts in this thread: The thread was kind of getting out of hand (i.e. delving into too many different subjects), so I split it (twice, actually). Look at the main index for the Piano/Keyboards forum, and you should see the two splits.

In His love,
Nate

[Nathanael]

Originally posted by KeyboardFreak
I have yet to deal with progressive rock, playing string sounds, or Jeff Deyo's keyboardist. After I do a little bit of listening, I'll try to come back and post some more.

Please let me know if any of this has been helpful.

In His love,
Nate [/B]

I would guess that what you said was helpfull, except I really don't have any of those problems...

As long as you tell me how to play like Kieth Emerson without just saying "play Dominant 7th or suspended stuff", I'm happy

[Nate]

Originally posted by JrnymnNate
I would guess that what you said was helpfull, except I really don't have any of those problems...

Sorry. I'm afraid I'm not going to be of much help with your problems... Prog really isn't my style.

As long as you tell me how to play like Kieth Emerson without just saying "play Dominant 7th or suspended stuff", I'm happy

Hehe. Ok, besides Emerson, who are some other artists I should listen to? Any particular songs that embody the style you are after??

Sorry if I'm sounding like I'm dodging your questions. I'm really not trying to, and I would love to be able to give you some sort of an answer, I'm just not sure that I'm qualified or capable.

In His love,
Nate

[Nathanael]

Emerson is really the prime example of what I'm talking about... he has a unique soloing style and I'm not sure who to compare him to.

Try listening to "Hoedown", "Karn Evil Nine(First Impression", "Trilogy", and "Knife Edge". The way he does his chord/solos changes and solos sound really awsome, but I have no idea what I'm listening to.

"Take a Pebble" is also cool, and he uses an acoustic. So that Rock Organ sound doesn't drown everything out. But it's alot softer and jazzy.

Other artists who play similar styles(but none of them are keyboardists) are King Crimson, Genesis, and (from what I've heard of them[which was just today]) Jethro Tull.

To a far lesser extent, more somewhat similar artists are ELO, David Bowie and Pink Floyd.

[guitarfan01]

I really haven't heard much of Emerson's organ style, but the organ style that I try to get (and occasionally succeed) is modeled off of Deep Purple's Jon Lord.

Galen

[EDIT] Darn, this thing looks dead. [/EDIT]