[KrispyKritter]

Does the Bible teach tithing for the NT believer?

[Athanasius]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Does the Bible teach tithing for the NT believer?

Oh no! Not this again!

Jonathan runs and hides...waits for the arrival of Travis and donny to duke it out!

[guitarman]

Ummm.....I guess I wasn't around when they argued about this last time....

But in my opinion, tithing was fulfilled in Christ. We are to take up a collection in the church, but not tithe.


~~Aaron

[KrispyKritter]

yea... i missed that one too... maybe this will revive the excitement.

[smitty2622]

Are we ever told not to tith?




Peace

[eldestofvic]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter
Does the Bible teach tithing for the NT believer?

I don't think that the NT teaches the believer to do anything but believe in the Lord Jesus and to keep His commandments in love(i.e. do the "works" of the Lord).

That being said. There is strong indication of a clearly defined communal nature that was encouraged (dare I say enforced) by the Apostles and the earliest believers. This would indicate that, again in love, we are expected to share our wealth with that of our particular faith community. I would suggest then that the term "tithing" is a nice name for this, and the OT formula of 10% seems fair.

What do you think?

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by smitty2622
Are we ever told not to tith?

Lev. 19:27 "'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

Where does it say that we can go ahead now and cut & clip?

Not being told not to tithe is meaningless. Thats creating a doctrine based on assumptions. Thats like the doctrine in the Church of Christ denomination that forbids ANY musical instrumentation in their worship. They sing only acapella. Why? Because the NT never specifically mentions anything about musical instruments in worship.

You need something more solid, my friend.

[Jesus Fish <><]

Originally posted by eldestofvic
I don't think that the NT teaches the believer to do anything but believe in the Lord Jesus and to keep His commandments in love(i.e. do the "works" of the Lord).

That being said. There is strong indication of a clearly defined communal nature that was encouraged (dare I say enforced) by the Apostles and the earliest believers. This would indicate that, again in love, we are expected to share our wealth with that of our particular faith community. I would suggest then that the term "tithing" is a nice name for this, and the OT formula of 10% seems fair.

What do you think?

I think giving 10% is fine, but if one gives less than that, there is nothing wrong with it. There is no set standard that we are to follow when we give.

2 Cor. 9:7 "So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver."

It's just a decision that you have to make. A person should give back to God however much they feel that God has blessed them. It's all in the spirit of the giving. There is no point in giving $5000 to the church when you are only doing it cause you think others are watching you or that God expects it from you. If you know you don't have enough to pay your bills, but you still trust and are thankful that God is taking care of you, then give what you feel like you should, and trust that God will provide for you.

[guitarman]

I'd say Jesus Fish and eldestofvic have pretty healty views of the subject. Although I still wouldn't call it 'tithing' because that was fulfilled in Christ. Call it a collection or whatever .

~~Aaron

[Godsservent]

How about an offering

[Travis]

Originally posted by guitarman
Ummm.....I guess I wasn't around when they argued about this last time....

We were on the same side, arguing for tithing.

[reags]

Originally posted by AlwaysReforming
Oh no! Not this again!

Jonathan runs and hides...waits for the arrival of Travis and donny to duke it out!

hehe could be interesting once again

[guitarman]

Originally posted by Travis
We were on the same side, arguing for tithing.

hehe.....wow, that was a while ago! But I remember it!! My only change of opinion is in the terminology .

~~Aaron

[+Donny]

Tithing



Introduction
Very few people truly tithe to their churches anymore. To give a tenth of your income to your local church is considered a heart issue, something to follow through with if one feels led. The idea of “giving what you feel led to give” often ends up being much less than a tenth of one’s income. This is a major problem in the church, for it goes against the clear scriptural command to give 10% to the church.
Such a widespread, anti-tithing attitude is almost also partnered with the claim that it is legitimate to give a portion of what you feel “led” to give to charities and organizations besides the church. Even if one acknowledges that we are to given a tenth or our income to God, they usually claim that any gift to a Christian organization can fulfill part, or even the whole, of their tithe. In this way, much of the money that is supposed to go to God is sent to parachurch ministries and charities or merely kept in the bank accounts of Christians. This should be called exactly what it is: robbing God.

Will a man rob God? yet ye rob me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. Bring ye the whole tithe into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now herewith, saith Jehovah of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. Malachi 3:8-10

Tithing and Taxes
All Christians acknowledge the power of the state to levy taxes on its subjects. This authority is given by God and can be enforced by the state on disobedient subjects. This is because the state has a legitimate claim to a portion of the possessions of its subjects for its services. Thus, the state is sovereign over its subjects. The authority to tax must include sovereignty over those being taxed. This is why the family cannot tax the state. Does the family have sovereignty over the state so that the family can tell the state that it is obligated to pay them a certain amount of its income? No, not at all. Also, does the family have sovereignty over the taxes placed on them by the state? Can it legitimately give the state only a part of what the state requires? Can it legitimately control where its tax money goes? No, because the state is sovereign. State representatives collect the taxes, enforce sanctions against those who refuse to pay their taxes, and allocate the taxes to various services.
The Church is financed by the tithe. The tithe to the clergy has been in existence since Abraham and has never disappeared. Abraham paid his tithe to Melchizedek the priest, who had a legitimate claim to the tithe. The tribes of Israel paid tithes to the Levites, who were the priests. Likewise, church members pay their tithe to the church. Therefore, churches have a legitimate claim to the tithe. It is a requirement of members to pay the tithe to their local church, just as it was in the Old Testament. If a church members refuses, he is a thief and is robbing God. Therefore, the Church, through the proper means, must bring sanctions upon those who rob God. This concept is inescapable if one acknowledges the sovereignty of the church over its members. But does the church have sovereignty over the tithe, or do the members? Furthermore, who gets the tithe? Why only the local church? Is the New Testament clergy comparable to the Levites? Why did the Levites get the tithe?

Tithing and Sovereignty
The church has authority over its members. This is seen in its ability to excommunicate, the sanction against disobedient, unrepentant sinners. The church is represented as carrying the keys of heaven, while the state carries the sword and the family the rod. These all represent sovereignty and the sanctions on subjects who are disobedient to the authority. If any of them lose their negative sanctions over disobedient subjects, they lose their sovereignty and covenantal authority. However, we see that the church possesses such sovereignty.
This then leads to the inevitable question: who has the authority over the tithe? Is it the giver or the receiver? Is it the members of the clergy? The Church must possess this authority. As in the state, the taxed does not have authority over his taxes and where they are spent. If they do not like how they are being spent, they can attempt to move to the jurisdiction of another state. Likewise, the tithe-giver does not have authority over his tithe and where it is spent. That is the jurisdiction of the clergy and it is exactly why those who do not give their tithe are called robbers and thieves; it is the same as refusing to pay your taxes to the state. The tithe is not the possession of the tithe-giver; it is the possession of God. The tithe-giver does not have the authority to refuse to give the tithe to the church because it is not his money to begin with. God demands a tenth of our income, thus it is His. Denying the authority to bring negative sanctions against violators in turn denies sovereignty over the tithe itself. Thus, whichever institution has authority over the tithe also has authority to bring negative sanctions against violations of tithing. This naturally will lead to the question of who gets the tithe, and therefore, who gets to decide where it is used. What administration has authority, as representative of God, over the tithe?

Tithing and Sacraments
To see who, in the New Testament, has the legitimate claim to the tithe, we must see who had authority over it in the Old Testament. As stated before, Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek the priest, thus displaying Melchizedek’s authority over him. But where did this authority come from? Was it because Melchizedek was a king? No, for we do not see Abraham giving similar tributes to any other king. Hebrews 7 clearly spells out the answer. It was because of priestly authority. As a priest, Melchizedek had the authority to a tithe from Abraham. We also see that Melchizedek brought out wine and bread, a foreshadowing of the Lord’s Supper. Therefore, we see that three things are related: the tithe, priesthood, and the sacraments/holy. This is included in the Levitical authority over the tithe. The claim of the tithe is related to their office of priesthood and protection of the sacraments or holy temple (Nehemiah 10:37-39; Numbers 18:21-22). Levites had a legal claim to a tenth of the incomes of the other tribes because of their status of priests and guardians of the holy.
The institution that has legitimate authority over the receiving, allocations, and sanctions involved with the tithe in the New Covenant is, therefore, the Church. The clergy, the special ministers of God in the Covenant, are the collectors of the tithe. Just as the state has a legitimate claim to tax its subjects because it is a civil minister of God, the clergy has authority over the tithe because it is a priestly minister of God. Instead of monitoring who could become a priest through birth (the tribe of Levi), priests are now restricted to those who meet certain requirements. They are the leaders of worship and have authority over the sacraments. By excommunicating an unrepentant sinner, the clergy cuts that person off from the Church, and therefore the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper. Thus, the clergy is the guardian of the sacraments and of the holy. Based on this, we can correctly assume that the clergy, as the priestly ministers of God ruling over the Church, and thus representing God, have authority over the tithe of church members.

Tithing and Charity
Now we must address the question of how much of the tithe goes to the local church. Is it permissible to give some of the tithe to a charity or ministry? Or must it all go the local church? Since it is such a common practice to give part of the tithe in such a way, it must be addressed.
There is certainly nothing biblically wrong with charity or donations to ministries outside your local church. However, there is something wrong with giving part of your tithe to such ministries. The tithe is not the tithe-giver’s, therefore he does not have the authority over the allocation of it. All of the tithe must go to the local church. The clergy of the local church, being the authority of the tithe, then distributes the tithe. A local church could take part of the tithe and give it to a separate ministry, but this is not the jurisdiction of the tithe-giver. Any donations given individually must be done in addition to and after the tithe has been paid.
As far as which charity to give to, research needs to be done. Do they indiscriminately give to those in “need”? Do they apply biblical principles in their budget? Are they constantly begging for money because they are in debt? What is the purpose? How much of your donation goes to administration and advertising? All of these questions need to be considered and applied to our giving and additional donations if we expect reform in charities. Don’t expect the charities to change their methods of over-budgeting, getting deep into debt, begging, and indiscriminate giving while you are still sending out checks to them.

Tithing and Civil Tyranny
Modern civil government overtaxes its citizens. Income tax, property tax, sales tax, ad infinitum ad nauseum puts holes in our wallets. In many modern states, taxes go over 50% of a family’s income. This is tyranny and thievery. Samuel, when telling the Israelites of the tyranny that would ensue if they got a king, mentioned taxes rising above a tithe (1 Samuel 8:15, 17). At first, this seems laughable; it would be considered a dream come true for some people if taxes dropped to even close to a tithe, let alone lower than it. Why is it considered tyranny if taxes rise this high? The state is laying claim to more than the tithe, thus more than God Himself. The state is thus elevating itself above God. That is the meaning of a state having taxes higher than God’s tax.
It also is thievery. There are very few taxes that are legitimate in the Bible. The reason is that the civil government is limited to protecting its citizens from outside invaders and from inward criminals. This does not include robbing from the rich and giving to the poor. The state does not have the biblical right to take money from the wealthy and redistribute it to the poor. It also does not have the authority to regulate prices and control the market. Socialism is thus despotic thievery.
Having established that taxes are to be lower than what they are now, what about now? Do we tithe what we have left over after the civil government robs us? No. We are to tithe to God out of our first fruits (Proverbs 3:9). The civil government is subordinate to God’s government (the church), thus taxes to the state are subordinate to our tithe. Failing to tithe also invokes the negative sanctions of God’s wrath, while the state only wields the sword. We should respect and fear the former before the latter. We must apply this to our budget. We are to give our tithe first, then pay the rest. No institution has the authority to rob people of their incomes so extensively that they cannot afford to tithe. This is one thing that America seems to have figured out somewhat correctly. Tithes are to be tax-deductible. We are to give a tithe, and then we are to pay taxes, bills, and the rest. God, and thus the church, comes before the state, the house, the electricity, the phone, the water, or the cable television. The state does not have first dibs on our income, God does. Thus, the church cannot survive in a communist or socialist state. If one has very little or no money to give, the church cannot provide for its priests, and thus falls apart.

Tithing and Church Discipline
The fact that tithing to a local church is an obligation and that disobedience is thievery has been established. So what do churches do? Logically, since the Church has authority over the tithe, there should be discipline for any robbing of the Church.
I am not suggesting that there be a police force that checks up on the incomes and tithes of church members to make sure they are tithing. We do not do that with any other sin that would bring church discipline. Do we place surveillance equipment in houses to make sure members are not committing adultery? Do we hire spies to know if members rob a store or raise their children in a bad way? No. The Church is to address the issue if it comes up; it should neither be ignored now should we attempt to “check up” on the incomes of members. If it is obvious that a member is not tithing, we should follow the pattern designed in Matthew 18 by going to him and inquiring about it. If the person refuses to repent and ignores the accusation, then he is to be brought before the Church. If he still refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be excommunicated for his sin.
An obvious point needs to be brought up again. Refusing to tithe is robbing God. Would we allow an unrepentant thief to retain his church membership, or would he be excommunicated? Would we excommunicate a robber of man, but not a robber of God? What about a murderer? Would we excommunicate an adulterer? Of course we would. Then we must also take this church discipline to those who would sin against God Himself and choose to selfishly rob Him. This is a sobering realization to most churches today. In fact, most shy away from exercising excommunication in general, let alone those who do not tithe. However, it is the clergy’s obligation to guard the holy from defilement and preach the truth. A great way to make sure the congregation understands this is to preach on it. Preach on the obligation to tithe and the judgment that follows from robbing God of His due portion. The subject is a touchy one, but it is just as important as any. Do not let those who rob God, either knowingly or not, to continue to do so. Inform them of their error and pray that they repent and obey God’s commands.

[+Donny]

Tithing and the Old Testament
There were certain practices involved with the tithe in the Old Testament. If the points made above about tithing in modern times are accurate, they should relate to the Old Testament practices involved with tithing. There are three main areas that will be examined: location, purpose, and frequency.
The Israelites ran their lives in seven-year cycles. Normally, the tithe would be brought to a central location. There the Israelites would have a feast, giving the remainder of the tithe to the priests (Deuteronomy 12:11; 14:23-24). However, every third year the tithe would be deposited at the local city gates. Instead of a central location for the feast and collection, it was local to whatever city one lived in. Since we, in the New Covenant, do not have a central location to deposit our tithes, we follow the third-year pattern. We bring our tithes to our local church elders and have local feasts (love feasts; 1 Corinthians 11:20-22; Jude 12).
As stated before, the remainder of the tithe, after the feast, went to the priests (Numbers 18:21-22; 2 Chronicles 31:4; Nehemiah 10:37-39). Thus, the tithe not only financed the priests, but it financed a yearly feast, which acted as a charity to the poor (Deuteronomy 14:28-29). In 1 Corinthians 11:20-22, Paul speaks of this practice in the New Testament. Therefore, our tithes should finance our weekly local feast, the remainder going to the elders. In the Old Testament, part of the tithe was food. The leftovers from the feast would go to the storehouses of the priests (Nehemiah 10:37-39; Malachi 3:10). When we bring food to be eaten at the feast, not only should the cost toward the food be part of the tithe, but the leftovers from the feast should go to the elders of the church, since the food, being part of the tithe, is under the authority of the elders. This food can be given out to families after the feast, but only with the direction or consent of the elders.
The only practice that seems like an odd shift is how often we tithe. It is clear that tithing was yearly in the Old Testament, but seems to be weekly in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 16:2). Therefore, should we tithe yearly? I would say “No”. There are two reasons I would answer this way.
First, we see that the tithe always had a “love feast” with it. How often do we find this love feast in the New Testament? We see that it was weekly, every time the local church gathers. Thus, the tithe should also be weekly, since it is the tithe that finances the feast.
Also, there could be a symbolic reason behind the frequency of tithing. In the Old Testament, the high priest would enter into the holy of holies, the very presence of God, annually (Hebrews 9:7). However, we now enter into the presence of God weekly, worshiping Him in remembrance of His sacrifice and redemption of our souls. Our worship in not the same as the Old Testament worship on the Sabbath, for ours is not in the very presence of God in the context of redemption and covenant renewal. Therefore, if the tithe is truly linked to our gathering in the presence of God, our tithe should be weekly, not annually.

Objections Considered
There are a few objections to the statements I have made about tithing. They are appeals to the New Testament principles and examples to try to show that the tithe command is remove or that it shouldn’t be enforced.
The first objection is made on the basis that Old Testament law does not monitor us anymore. We are to follow the Law of Christ, not Moses. However, this objection confuses the New Testament condemnation of being under the Law with the Law itself.
We find throughout the epistles that we are no longer under the Law. What does that mean? Simply that we are not justified by works, but by faith. This in no way destroys the validity of the Law for us today. The Law is perfect and holy (Psalm 19:7,8; 119; Romans 7:12), so the morality expressed by the Law remains. Only those things specifically removed are no longer applicable. Thus if we find an Old Testament law in conflict with one of the New Testament, we must investigate to make sure we are interpreting the said laws correctly. If so, then the New Testament command would logically remove that of the Old Testament.
An appeal is then made to the practices of the New Testament church. Tithing never seems to be referenced, and people seem to give more than the regular tithe. This is true in the circumstances that are recorded (Acts 2:45; 4:32-37; 5:1-11), but this is an argument from silence, thus hardly proving anything. Just because no writer specifically recorded that the church in the New Testament practicing tithing does not remove our obligation to do so. In fact, the examples seem to show people giving more than the tithe. This is not the practice of Christians today, and there is nothing wrong with doing that. Thus an appeal to the supposed “giving how the spirit leads” is erroneous and has no biblical support.
One specific verse that is appealed to against the belief in requiring the tithe is 2 Corinthians 9:7.

Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:7

This appeal really proves either nothing or too much. First of all, this verse really does not contradict an obligatory tithe. Those who love God follow His commands. The Law is said to be restoring and enlightening (Psalm 19:7-8). We are, of course, to obey God’s commands out of love, not grudgingly. We should cheerfully submit to His authority and demands. Therefore, even if this verse was speaking of the tithe, it offers no evidence against an obligatory tithe.
Furthermore, under the assertion that this verse refers to general giving to the church, what if one purposed in their heart to give absolutely nothing to the church? Under the logic of the opposing argument, this would be entirely permissible. A church could do nothing (quite literally) if its congregation decided to give absolutely nothing, as long as they did it cheerfully.
Finally, this verse does not even refer to the tithe. Under the theory of the obligatory tithe, there can also certainly be additional contributions. This is what Paul is speaking of and asking for. In verses 10-12, Paul speaks of the “liberality” which causes “overflowing through many thanksgivings of God”. Paul is speaking of additional giving (thus “liberality”) in order to cause an “overflowing”. Does Paul anywhere say that such giving is required? No. In fact, if we look at chapter 8, this passage is clarified. According to verses 13-14 of chapter 8, the giving Paul is requesting is giving to another church that is in need. This is certainly not the tithe he speaks of.
Another appeal is made to Matthew 6:3-4. The claim is that giving is supposed to be secret and unknown to all other men.

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee. Matthew 6:3-4

However, such an appeal takes Christ’s command out of context. The following is the complete context of the command.

Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee. And when ye pray, ye shall not be as the hypocrites: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee. And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Matthew 6:1-7

The passage begins by instructing us not to be “show-offs” with our good deeds. Christ continues by condemning the practice of announcing one’s offerings, which is seeking glory among men, not God. What follows is the verse that is often appealed to, but surely Christ does not mean that our giving must be totally secret and seen by no man? If that were true, then it was contradicted in the examples of the giving in other New Testament passages. For example, in Acts 4:35-36, we see that the gifts were given to the Apostles. This shows that at least the apostles knew who gave and how much the gift was. In fact, Luke even records the gift of Joseph in v. 36. In Acts 5:1-11, a detailed account of the deception of Ananias and Sapphira is given. Peter obviously knew that Ananias and Sapphira had brought him a gift and how much it was.
A quick look at the remainder of Matthew 6:1-7 will cast further doubt on the use of v. 3-4 to support a form of secretive giving. In v. 5-7, Christ condemns long, repetitive prayers that are spoken for the same reason as announcing one’s giving. We should not try to find glory in men in our prayers. Christ then says that our prayers should be in an inner chamber with the door shut behind us. Are we to use this verse to condemn prayers during church services? Should we now condemn a father praying with his children or a pastor praying with a sick hospital patient? Not at all. In fact, other New Testament examples contradict such a use of this verse (Acts 12:12, for example).

Conclusion
Because of the general attitude against tithing, the church is poorly funded and has been forced to beg. This shows the church’s problem. Not only does it deserve the tithe, but church members are required to by God. The tithe is not the church member’s personally charity or contribution to the church by his own good and righteous grace. We are not called to give some amount that the spirit “leads” us to give through how charitable we happen to feel Sunday morning (which, for most people, happens to fall under 10%). The tithe is exactly a tenth of our income, a portion that is just as much under the authority of the church as taxes are under the government. Churches have become lax in disciplining thievery of God and congregations have become lax in their giving.
Imagine if America announced that it would no longer be punishing those who did not pay their taxes. They would survive on charity and contributions. What would happen? America would go bankrupt, with nothing to pay their staff. Any attempts to bring back punishments would be met with fierce opposition and claims that America has no “right” to do that. Now look at the church. What do we have? We have exactly the same thing. We have created irresponsible, begging churches who are constantly in debt and barely even mention the word “tithe”, let alone bring down problem punishment on those who refuse to pay the church what is due. And we have congregation after congregation of church members who neglect God’s command to tithe and rob God. Attempts to bring back proper punishment to the robbers and thieves in our congregations is met with fierce opposition and claim that the church has no “right” to do that.
So what is the solution? How do we get back to the biblical act of tithing? It needs to preached and taught to the congregations. The unbiblical selfishness of the “Hey! That’s my money to tithe!” can and will be overcome by biblical preaching and the Spirit of God in the churches. How did God get the attention of the Israelites when they failed to fulfill their requirement of tithing?

Will a man rob God? yet ye rob me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. Bring ye the whole tithe into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now herewith, saith Jehovah of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast its fruit before the time in the field, saith Jehovah of hosts. And all nations shall call you happy; for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith Jehovah of hosts. Your words have been stout against me, saith Jehovah. Yet ye say, What have we spoken against thee? Ye have said, It is vain to serve God; and what profit is it that we have kept his charge, and that we have walked mournfully before Jehovah of hosts? And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are built up; yea, they tempt God, and escape. Malachi 3:8-15




the above two posts is a paper I wrote on the subject. I would refer you to the book Tithing and the Church by Gary North for a muchm ore elaborate argument for my position.