[BIGFATJAM]

1 Samuel 16:14-15 (NIV)
Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.
[15] Saul's attendants said to him, "See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you....[23] Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him.

This is interesting passage. It actually states that God sent the evil spirit to torment Saul. Contrary to Job where we see God allowing Satan to "test" Job, here we see the passage actually implying that God sent the evil spirit. I just think it is another demonstration of God's power and sovereignty that He would use something evil, like this spirit, to accomplish His purposes...Amazing.

Any thoughts on this passage?

[Superman]

The Hebrew word we translate "evil" (Ra) has two different meanings.

Catastophe, bad happenings, negative effects, etc. are not necessarily "wicked" but are "bad" (negative effects) which is what the Hebrew word can often mean. It also means "disagreeable, unhappiness, distress, valueless, etc."

Our word "bad" can mean "wicked," but it can also mean simply "negative" without the evil/wicked motives. "Ra" carries that same flexibility, so context is needed to understand, just like in our own language.

I can be a bad employee without being evil/wicked. I can say you have a "bad idea" and not mean it is full of malice. I could hhave had a "bad day" because I got a parking ticket/lost my wallet/stubbed my toe, none of which are "demonized" or wicked/evil from the heart of Satan.

Context, my friend, context...

[BIGFATJAM]

I'm confused here Superman. Are you implying then that the spirit was possibly an angle bringing torment to Saul and not a demon? If so why it the spirit described as evil? Or are you saying that the spirit described may not be an actual spirit, but more of a condition/state Saul was in?

I want to better understand what you are saying so if you could expound a little more I would appreciate it....thanks


"With the departure of the Spirit of God, Saul became tormented by an evil spirit which God permitted to come (v. 14; cf. vv. 15-16; 18:10; 19:9). Whether this spirit had sinful or only harmful characteristics, it is quite certain that it was a demonic, satanic instrument (cf. Job 1:12; 2:6; 1 Kings 22:19-22)." Bible Knowledge Commentary.

[Superman]

You have to understand that you are reading and ENGLISH translation.

The Hebrew word "Ra" is a lot like our English word "Bad."

What that means is, something can be "bad" because it is evil/wicked


OR


Something can be "bad" because it is annoying/hurtful/unfortunate/grievious.


So understanding that, sometimes English translations dont always pick the "best" word to translate.

It should probably have been translated "a vexing spirit" or "a distressful spirit" because "Ra" means those things too, in the proper context. That same word "ra" has been translated as these other words I offer in the OT.

Yes, a spirit went and troubled Saul, but that does not mean it was an wickedly diabolical demonic blob of wicked evil hate mongering chunk of malice.

God sent a spirit to distress/upset/give no rest to Saul, because Saul was in disobedience.

So although Saul's situation was "bad" (it sucked), it was not sinister (evil/wicked).

Understand now?

[Athanasius]

Hey Supes...thanks! This is a passage that I have wondered about since I was a little kid!

Peace.

[Superman]

Here are all the ways the word "ra" has been translated, and the numbers represent how many times that particular word was used:

KJV
adversity, 4; affliction, 6; bad, 13; evil, 442; favoured, 3; grievous, 2; harm, 3; hurt, 20; ill, 5; misc, 34; mischief, 21; naught, 3; noisome, 2; sad, 2; sore, 9; trouble, 10; wicked, 25; wickedness, 59;

NASB
adversity, 7; bad, 25; badly, 1; calamity, 4; deadly, 1; defamed, 1; defames, 1; defect, 1; destroying, 1; disaster, 2; displease, 1; displeased, 1; displeasing, 1; distressing, 1; evil, 218; evil man, 3; evil men, 4; evil things, 4; evildoer, 1; evildoers, 1; evils, 1; great, 1; grievous, 4; harm, 3; harmful, 4; hurt, 1; man, 1; miserable, 1; misfortune, 1; ruin, 3; sad, 4; selfish, 1; serious, 1; severe, 2; sore, 2; surely, 1; threats, 1; treacherous, 1; trouble, 3; troubled, 1; ugly, 6; unpleasant, 2; what is evil, 2; what was evil, 5; which is evil, 3; wicked, 15; wicked women, 1; wickedly, 1; wickedness, 1; wild, 5; worst, 1; wretched, 1

So you see, it has a wide range, and context should tell you. I think "evil" is not the most accurate translation.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Superman
Yes, a spirit went and troubled Saul, but that does not mean it was an wickedly diabolical demonic blob of wicked evil hate mongering chunk of malice.

Wow, there's a visual...

[BIGFATJAM]

Originally posted by Superman
Yes, a spirit went and troubled Saul, but that does not mean it was an wickedly diabolical demonic blob of wicked evil hate mongering chunk of malice.

So are you saying that this spirit was indeed a demon, but maybe not an awfully bad demon?

And I understand the problems that arise from translating Hebrew into English. No need to be too simplistic

Also, though the material you've provided has been informative, I still fail to see the point off all this. You imply that I need to "keep things in context," yet I fail to see how my original thought was out of context based on what information you've provided. I never implied that it was Satan himself that troubled Saul. All I pointed out was that the spirit mentioned in the passage was most likely a demon that troubled Saul, which incidentally was deliberately sent by God to accomplish just that. Whether the actual Hebrew word was meant to imply evil, bad, harmful, sad, sore, etc. seems to be irrelevant. It was a bad/ evil ____ (fill in the blank) spirit sent by God to torment Saul. The overall thought was that even demons are used by God to accomplish his purposes...and that is a demonstration of His power and authority over His creation...which is cool.

[wjbkirk]

So Super you are saying this was a nice Demon? Kind of like Elizabeth Hurley in Bedazzled?

[wjbkirk]

torment me!!!! lol

[Superman]

Spirits are spirits. God has spirits under Him (not to be confused with THE Holy Spirit), and Satan has spirits under him.

For example, the nine gifts of the spirit Paul mentions are actual spirits that operate in the person with the "gift."

We have a hard time seeing this in our English translations, but both the OT and NT original language show this.

That said, "demons" are specifically evil spirits... There are many cases of "holy" spirits mentioned (aside from THE Holy Spirit) that are employed by God.

If it was a DEMON (wicked spirit), it came from Satan, if it was NOT a demon (a "holy" spirit), it came from God.

Most believe that demons are fallen spirits, just like the fallen angels. They fell when Satan fell. Just not all of them, like the good angels.

I can give examples if necessary...

[wjbkirk]

COuld you please show the biblical references for drawing a distinctinon between fallen angels and fallen spirits? They are the same thing, demons all.

THe holy spirits you talk about are angels in the Bible. Demons and angels, and that's it. So either this thing was a demon or an angel. I suppose an angel could torture someone, but Jesus certainly took control of the demons when he threw them into the flock of sheep.

[Superman]

Originally posted by wjbkirk
COuld you please show the biblical references for drawing a distinctinon between fallen angels and fallen spirits? They are the same thing, demons all.

THe holy spirits you talk about are angels in the Bible. Demons and angels, and that's it. So either this thing was a demon or an angel. I suppose an angel could torture someone, but Jesus certainly took control of the demons when he threw them into the flock of sheep.

Angels have bodies. Spirits do not. An angel cannot posses a man. A spirit can. They are two different things.

Actually, it was not sheep, but pigs. And Jesus did not "throw" them into the pigs, they begged Him if it was OK. An angel with a body cannot abide in a person, and if they could, why would they want to go in pigs?

Spirits need bodies to operate.

[Mr. Squeeky]

Are you saying that have bodies from the several places in the Bible where they appear in the form of man, as in to Abraham, Balaam, Ezekiel, John, etc. ?

[Chrysostom]

So, in your interpretation, a cruel spirit came from God to torment someone... and this was a holy spirit?