[Conor_Hampton]

Conor,

Norhtern Ireland protestants have, historically, felt culturally more British than they have Irish, for a host of reasons. For you to say they aren't British is to, on some level, deny their historical identity. There really are two Irish histories, and two Irish identities, when you get down to brass tacks. I would suggest looking at resources that present a Unionist or moderate Nationalist perspective on Irish history. Tim Pat Coogan's books are incredible, and I would heartily recommend them.

I respect your opinion and it seems to be well educated. I just have trouble understanding how people can be in love with thier invaders and opressors. Obviously there is something I have missed, maybe I should study history more.Hopefully Pat Coogan can shed some light for me, thank you for the recommendation.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by Conor_Hampton

I respect your opinion and it seems to be well educated. I just have trouble understanding how people can be in love with thier invaders and opressors. Obviously there is something I have missed, maybe I should study history more.Hopefully Pat Coogan can shed some light for me, thank you for the recommendation.

Because, under Unionist thinking, it was the British constitution and guarantees of religious rights that allowed them to be Protestant and practice freely. That the Protestant-dominated Irish parliament subsequently passed the Penal Laws (laws that made Catholicism a criminal offense and forbade Catholics from public service roles such as being MPs) under the British constitution seems to be missed in that argument. Also, many Protestant Unionists come from the plantation stock and are the remnents of that ascendancy that weren't really Irish to begin with; they're essentially Scottish Presbyterians.

So, the 'public argument' for unionists is essentially that ending the Union and being apart of the Republic would end the protections on religious expression as Protestants in a Catholic-dominated land; essentially, that "Home Rule is Rome rule."

But, underneath that (from my own analysis) is the feeling that losing their place of power in 'Ulster' to the Republic would end their ascendancy over both the Catholic working-class and the Protestant working-class. Hence the near-dominate role of pseudo-masonic fraternities like the Orange Order at the highest levels of the original Stormont government and in the highest levels of business. I don't know how much that influence remains, but at the start of the Troubles and right up to the early '90s, it was always a big influence. So influential that when Westminster politicians refered to using Unionist politicians to get what they want, it was called "playing the Orange card."

There are a lot of other issues that tie into that (eg., I do think the North would be better off, economically, staying with the U.K., for example), but calling the British "occupiers" and "invaders" is a huge maltreatment of the applicable history, and not much more than IRA propaganda.

Read "The Oxford History of Ireland" by Roy Foster. Read "Ireland Since the Rising" by Tim Pat Coogan. Read "The IRA" by Tim Pat. Read "The Troubles" by Tim Pat. Go visit The Conflict Archive on the Internet. Visit the website of the Ulster Unionist Party They're all good.

[Conor_Hampton]

I'm learning a lot here. I appreciate you taking out the time to explain things to me. The only thing I saw is where you said that the invasion of 1171 was not an invasion, what would you call it?

[glamaricious]

does any one agree/disagree with this? "History is important, it teaches us not to make the same mistake twice. But it is about the problems of yesterday, and wont solve the problems of today". That was a random thought. I dont necessarily agree with it myself. but what do you guys think?

[Conor_Hampton]

If you never learn of that which happened before you were born, you will forever remain a child.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by Conor_Hampton

I'm learning a lot here. I appreciate you taking out the time to explain things to me. The only thing I saw is where you said that the invasion of 1171 was not an invasion, what would you call it?

I don't think I said that, but the Pope had already given Henry II dominion over Ireland in 1152. The Pope (and Henry) were gravely upset that the bishop of Dublin who, historically, been subject to the Archbishop of Canterbury, had declared himself a metropolitian Archbishop.

A bit later, it was King Dermot (the deposed King of Leinster/Dublin) who asked Henry II for help in regaining his throne, and gave fealty and homage to Henry II. Henry initially declined, but allowed his subjects to help Dermot.

Several Norman barons and their troops went over, and after assisting Dermot regain his throne, one baron in particular, Richard fitz Gilber de Clare, earl of Pembroke and also called "Strongbow", was promsed Dermot's throne upon his death. What would have happened, had this gone on, was that a rival Norman kingdom would have been set up on his western border. Henry couldn't allow that, so, with an army and the papal declaration in one hand, Henry invaded Ireland, with the Irish people asking him to invade.

Though he could have done out the army, since Strongbow intercepted Henry en route and begged for forgiveness, and offering Leinster as a fief to Henry. Henry accepted, and also accepted fealty and homage from the king of Cork, the King of Limeric, the chief of Leinster, the king of Airgialla, the King of Breifne and the King of Ulaid.

So, a violent Norman/English invasion of Ireland it was not. And while Republicans like to bemoan the instant submission of Irish clergy and kings to Henry, the fact is that the Irish had nothing to lose and everything to gain. And, to a certain degree, they merely exchanged one overlord (the High-King, Rory O'Connor who ruled from Ulster) for another. Moreover, within the next 10-20 years, English dominion was reduced to Dublin plus a few bits outside of Dblin called "The Pale." That there was colonization can't be disputed, but the image of the English as savage invaders in 1171 is hardy realistic.

[wolf_pga]

Yo! I'm from good old Norn Iron (Northern Ireland, for all you other peeps!!)
Come from Bangor, near Belfast, lovely place. If you're ever over here, visit Crawfordsburn, just on the outskirts of Bangor. Has amazin scenic beauty on a good day...
As for N.I. politics, I dont think it should be the major issue that it is. Obviously, people need to work it out, but it doesnt affect me that much. I think we should all be one, as Christ himself prayed we would be. Just my thoughts...hi to all outside this glorious wee island!!

[glamaricious]

Originally Posted by wolf_pga

As for N.I. politics, I dont think it should be the major issue that it is. Obviously, people need to work it out, but it doesnt affect me that much. I think we should all be one, as Christ himself prayed we would be. Just my thoughts...hi to all outside this glorious wee island!!

So true mate

[wolf_pga]

What do all you other Irelanders think? Is it just me and glamaricious who think it shouldn't matter?

[ruthiebabes]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

5. How loyal do you think the mainland UK is to the Union with N. Ireland?

Not very i mean we don't have an H&M clothes store yet

I'm a wee bit away from ya jreid in the loverly glens of gormley as i affectionately call it but for those who don't have a clue it's really called Glengormley, just a stones throw (literally, i've tried it trust me heehee) from Belfast..... plus we have Belfast Zoo IN Glengormley.... what's that about? lol

I'm with wolf and glamaricious on the whole "it shouldn't matter as much as people are makin out" thing.

Plus, the whole american thing where u feel the need to say "i'm irish" and u've never even been here? what's that about? Ok so i've been to South Africa for a bit and I've read a book about Tibet, does that mean I'm part Tibetan and part south african, i mean come on? Why the need to find identity in being irish? Are u ashamed to be american or somethin? lol

[wolf_pga]

Think its kinda to do with the whole immigration to america thing during the potato famine.
I agree though, not that it bothers me, buit why do you see a need to be identified as part irish?

[ruthiebabes]

Originally Posted by wolf_pga

not that it bothers me, buit why do you see a need to be identified as part irish?

thats what i was tryin to ask, only i don't think it came across too nicely sorry if it offended, that was unintentional

[wolf_pga]

Sorry, dont think it sounded offensive till after my post! That too was unintentional! Lol!

Anyways, any americans out there wanna respond?

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by wolf_pga

Anyways, any americans out there wanna respond?

I think its because the U.S. is a nation of immigrants, with a history and culture thats an amalgam of different cultures, so identifying their cultural background is important to carve out a niche, I suppose.

[ajacob]

um new to this thread but I live in Lisburn, Northern Ireland.