[Dr. Worm]

What did you have for breakfast this morning? Why? Was there any other choice available to you? I don't just mean convenient, but was it possible for you to eat something else? If you didn't have breakfast, why didn't you eat? Was it possible for you to eat something? Anything?

I ate Cocoa Pebbles. I ate them because I preferred them over the other cereal in my house - Grape Nuts. I also preferred them over the work it would take to make myself an omelette. I much preferred them over driving to the Waffle House and paying money for my breakfast. I preferred them over driving over to my ex-gfs house, killing her dog, and eating it. In fact, of all the things I could have possibly done for breakfast, I preferred eating Cocoa Pebbles over any other option.

So what did you eat and why? If you think about this, you will realize that whatever decision you made, it was made according to your greatest desire. Maybe it was the most convenient, and you desired convenience at the time. Maybe it tasted the best, and you desired the taste over convenience. But whatever you had for breakfast, you had it because it was your greatest desire at the time.

So if we always make choices and actions according to our greatest desire, do we still have free will? Yes. And no. We still are free to choose whatever it is our will desires. But our will can be influenced by many things out of our control. So in that respect, no, we do not have free will. I'm still talking about breakfast here.

I really enjoy eating Cocoa Pebbles. I had other options that I could have chosen, but I chose the Pebbles instead. However, more than anything in the world, I really love dirty underwear. I just can't get enough of it. The taste of dried urine and feces plastered onto the cotton, silk, lace, you name it - oh man, I just love it! So what if every box of Grape Nuts came with 5 free pairs of dirty underwear? I gaurantee you, I would start eating more Grape Nuts. No questions asked - it would be inevitable. I would still be free to choose the Cocoa Pebbles if I want, but the thing is, I don't want them anymore. Atleast not as much as I want the Grape Nuts and underwear. So I will always choose the Grape Nuts and underwear until something changes my desires.

So you tell me, do I have free will when it comes to eating breakfast? Well, lets see. You know I desire dirty underwear above all things. One day, as I'm sitting down to breakfast, you offer me dirty underwear. I accept your offer, and eat the dirty underwear instead of the Cocoa Pebbles. Now we must answer the question: Who caused me to eat dirty underwear for breakfast?

Am I merely a robot here? You know that I desire the underwear more than absolutely anything, and you offer me the underwear. So when you offered me dirty underwear, you knew without a shadow of a doubt that I would eat it. So do you think that I am responsible for my decision to eat it, or are you responsible for my decision? If I said "Its not my fault for eating it, its your fault that I ate it because you offered it to me," would anyone excuse my incredibly disgusting actions? Or should we blame my choice on the people who soiled the underwear? If they had never messed themselves, it would logically follow that I would not have eaten dirty underwear for breakfast. So does this now excuse me from eating dirty underwear?

I wouldn't consider myself a robot. I had many choices in front of me, and I just chose the one I wanted. I take full responsibility for eating dirty underwear. Yes, if those people had never messed themselves, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. And if you had never made them so readily available for me, I would not have made the extra effort to find some dirty underwear. But you are not to blame here. Its not your fault that I chose the underwear. Its not the fault of the people with the loose bowels that I chose to eat the underwear. It was my choice. You offered me something that I would inevitably accept, but I was still the one who chose it.

Now if you had offered me the underwear, but then tied me up, opened my mouth, and force-fed me Cocoa Pebbles, I would lose all free will and free choice. I would become a robot. You would become responsible for my eating Cocoa Pebbles. But as long as I can make a choice according to my greatest desire, I am responsible for whatever I eat. If you want to compliment my diet, I deserve your praise. If you want to throw up because of my diet, I deserve your disgust. I am just eating what I like to eat.

Even when my choice was inevitable, no one can say that it is anyone's fault but my own for choosing to eat the dirty underwear.

What did you have for breakfast this morning?

[Art]

I had yogurt. Strawberry banana. I chose it over 5 other flavors of yogurt, as well as Honey Bunches of Oats and Cinnamon Life. I had the Life the day before, as I exect I will again when I wake up. Perhaps, though, I will compliment the cinnamon life with some Orange Cream or Berry Medley yogurt. That sounds quite good. I will not choose until tomorrow, because I'm not going to be sure what I want until then. You never know, a dark horse may even enter. I might just eat some Eggo's.

I do assure you that I will not be eating dirty underwear, though. If someone tried to tie me up, I would choose to fight back.

[Mr. Squeeky]

You're missing out man. Grape nuts rock.

[Bryan]

I think Dr Worm is trying to make a point here.

[Mike Graham]

Yes, he is making a point and making it well.

He is totally right: there can be many choices available, but because of who you are, there is only one in each situation you, being you, can make.

[brandontmilan]

I think i understand the point you're trying to make... please clarify if i am wrong... Though you believe that you are making your own decision, upon your own freewill, you really aren't. Your greatest desire is what actually influences your own decision. So your desire is responsible for you choosing that... even though you actually chose it. So are you pointing out that perhaps God instills in us the desire to choose Him over any other thing??? Or am i missing the point???

[smitty2622]

Ask some ex drug addicts or alcoholics if their desire was out weighed by their will. The thing is you could have chosen any of the things you listed for breakfast, and it would have been your choice. I could have eaten breakfast today but I didn’t my desire was for Briskets and gravy, but I decided not to eat. Even though I desired to eat I didn’t and that was my choice. :kwink:


Peace

[GiddyAztec]

But you'll have to eat sometime and then your decision will be based on your desires.

[Dr. Worm]

Smitty - why didn't you eat? You desired Briskets and gravy (???) but chose not to eat. But why would you do such a thing? If you desired breakfast above all else, you would have chosen breakfast. Surely there is a reason you chose not to eat.

Even if you chose not to eat solely to prove that you can make a choice that goes against your greatest desire, you have failed. If you did such a thing, it is only because your desire to prove the point outweighed your desire to eat. Every choice and action you make is made according to your greatest desire.

This applies to drug addicts as well. Even if they desire to quit, they have a conflicting desire influenced by their addiction that makes them want to continue the habit. Whichever desire is stronger wins out.

[benj]

Very nice. Reminds me of Jonathon Edwards, Dr. Worm.

[Danny]

I think the point he is getting at, is that God cannot be blamed for the damnation of the non-elect. Many Arminians say that under Calvinism, God is to blame for man's sin, because he gave them the will to sin, but Matt is trying to get the point across, that even though the non-elect's choice to reject God and continue in sin, is inevitable, it is still their own choice, and God cannot be blamed for it.

Unless I, too, am completely missing the point.

BTW... that was a rather... interesting analogy....

[Danny]

Oh, and I had Eggos. I actually would have rather had the fudge mint oreos that were so temptingly sitting in the fridge, but apparently my desire to eat somewhat healthily out-weighed my desire for sweets.

[Colleen]

Very interesting insight. BTW, I had some rolls and apple juice. :P+

[benj]

Well, I slept in ridiculously late today, so no breakfast at all.

[smitty2622]

Romans 6
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

Throughout scripture we are called to control our desires. One cannot do this without some amount of free choice, other wise none of us would resist the draw of our sinful nature.

Romans 7
17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[1] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.

Many Christians fight with this problem, I have the desire to do what is right but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.

Romans 8:5
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

If we are set on what the spirit desires why then do we ever do anything sinful?

Romans 13
13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful
nature.

Do not think about how to gratify your evil desires, instead lets cloth ourselves with Christ, and not even think about our desire.

Ephesians 4
22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;

We have been taught to put off our desires yet sometimes we fall pray to those desires, even if it’s not always, as some would have us believe. We do not always follow our desire. Our natural desire or the desire of nature is always contrary to the desire of the spirit it’s a content battle. With Christ help we can overcome these desires and become children of the sprit and not nature. If we have no control over our desire we would be like animals.






Peace