Left Behind...

Benny Hicks · 12-04-2002, 09:42 AM

Though I'm a Presbyterian, I go to school at Calvary Baptist High School. I find that this provides me with an interesting mix of perspectives. Calvinism is still a bad word here because it is spurrs debates that take up class time (one time we had a debate that stretched three class periods, it was great). However, in our Bible class, our teacher decided to show us one of the Left Behind videos. I was fine with that, but I asked my teacher and the class if they thought that the Left Behind stuff was really true and that was the way it was gonna happen, and pretty much everyone said that they thought so. My teacher went so far as to say that it was great that these books were being published so that when the rapture happened people could read them and find out what was going on and what was going to happen. Needless to say, I thought this was a rediculous statement.

So, since I'm almost completely oblivious to eschatology, why don't you "end-times" people around here tell me why you think the Left Behind series is bogus (that seems to be the majority opinion around here). I greatly admire the opinions that this board produces so naturally I thought it best to see what you all think. Please keep this formal and informative, don't allow this to simply be Lahaye-bashing.

Ben

brown07 · 12-04-2002, 10:05 AM

Well, let's start with the idea of a Secret Rapture.

Even if one could (somehow) find support for a pretribulational rapture of the church where the rest of the world would be left behind, the Bible makes it pretty clear that when Christ returns for the church, it will not be a secret event - it will be public and obvious. The clearest example I can think of is in I Thess 4:16

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

So, even if one interprets this event to be separate and distinct from the general resurrection, it is clear that it is not a secret event. Christ's return for his church will be visible, audible, and known.

Benny Hicks · 12-04-2002, 10:09 AM

So, from what your saying, I'm assuming that you believe all the events prophesied of in Revalations will take place prior to Christ's "next" return. Don't laugh at me too much everyone, I really know next to nothing about all of this

Ben

j_barner2000 · 12-04-2002, 10:11 AM

I happen to be pretrib.. and while I believe that the series is interesting, NOBODY really knows with certainty what is going to happen during the trib except what the Bible lays out. The books are strictly fiction.... based upon the prophesy but filled with presuppositions and much conjecture. Certainly not to be considered to factual in it's entirety.

brandontmilan · 12-04-2002, 10:21 AM

Much of the Pretrib, Premillenial basis is in the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24. Throughout this, Jesus is speaking directly to the disciples, using words like "you", "this generation", etc. Now, with these words, there is an inescapable implication that the events He was speaking of would occur to the people He was speaking to. If He had really meant that these events would happen to the people 2000 years from now, He probably would have used words like, "your sons" or "your ancestors" or "the generation 2000 years from now." Thats a start...

SDG,
brandon t. milan

brown07 · 12-04-2002, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gruveguy
So, from what your saying, I'm assuming that you believe all the events prophesied of in Revalations will take place prior to Christ's "next" return. Don't laugh at me too much everyone, I really know next to nothing about all of this

Ben

I believe that the first 20 or so chapters of Revelation refer to the first century, the millenial reign refers to the current period of time, and Christ's return at the end of the millenium refers to the general resurrection of the dead and judgment of all people at some future time.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 12-04-2002, 01:09 PM

I believe in a similar to lahaye style rapture. His model has a huge hole though. the second coming can be known the day whereas Jesus said No man knows the day or hour. I believe Browns problem with it is he always refers to a rapture as a secret rapture when in fact in this view there will be nothing Secret about it. There are numerous points, (my favourite being when men cant die) that do NOT fit in with Partial preterism in the least. I am not dispensational either so before I get called one. Don't even bother.

JMcMoss · 12-04-2002, 01:34 PM

Christ's return at the end of the millenium? Must've missed that one...

Anyway, no, I don't agree with the claims in the Left Behind series/movies. Though it is interesting, the interpretation is far off beyond what explantion the Bible gives. Left Behind books say that after His people are taken up with him, that those who were not his people will stay here on earth and even have a second chance for salvation. Sorry, but that is rediculous. If it were so, then I could go live my horrible sinful life that I once lived and enjoy every sin I wanted to. Point being, everyone will be before God on judgement. Those who God did not "know" (and I mean personally know as a relationship through Christ), they will be cast into hell. This is from the parable of the banquet. I personally know someone who fell away from God because of these books because they saw a way to live a sinful life and be able to be saved after His are taken up. So yeah, it's a personal thing. They are leading people astray with their claims... :kmad:

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 12-04-2002, 01:39 PM

Whether or not there are people saved during the tribulation I dont know. It seems there would be because of the 2 wittnesses and the 144,000. Plus there are those that refuse the mark of the beast.

For the prets out there. What was put on hands or foreheads in 70 AD?

I have lots more little questions like this

brown07 · 12-04-2002, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillSPrestonEsq
For the prets out there. What was put on hands or foreheads in 70 AD?

That could easily refer to pagan clothing and jewelry that everyone wore. In these comments, I'm thinking specifically of Ephesus. If one didn't wear it, it would be clear to others that they didn't participate in Pagan worship. If they didn't participate in Pagan worship, then local commerce would not be open to them.

And, with the secret rapture, I'm not using my point to shoot down premillenialism. I'm just saying that Lahaye paints a picture of a secret rapture, which is clearly incorrect. There won't be anything secret about Christ's return. All I'm doing is shooting down Lahaye's picture of things.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 12-04-2002, 02:11 PM

show some indication that they were required to do something with hand or forehead in Jerusalem to buy and sell then. Jerusalem is the time clock and the focal point of revelation on earth.

Miscellaneous · 12-04-2002, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillSPrestonEsq
For the prets out there. What was put on hands or foreheads in 70 AD?

I have thought about this before and i don't believe it is speaking of the actual hand and forehead. It mentions right hand, which seems to signify more than just a body part. "Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father" . I don't really know all of the Jewish meaning of right hand or the usages of it. Nor do i know the usages of the forhead (which i am certain is a representation of something just like "right hand" is.) but i do not believe it is actually talking of the literal right hand and forehead.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 12-04-2002, 02:21 PM

so is it talking about buying or selling literally or is this a passage supporting marxism that says they will reject the capitolistic system.

Subjectivity sucks. You can make it say whatever youd like that way

Miscellaneous · 12-04-2002, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillSPrestonEsq
so is it talking about buying or selling literally or is this a passage supporting marxism that says they will reject the capitolistic system.

Subjectivity sucks. You can make it say whatever youd like that way

I am not a preterist. Actaully i've never even looked into the post pre mid trib stuff so i don't know what i am (clueless).
But you really have to look what it is talking about here before you start taking it literal.
The right hand
And the forehead.
If the parts were the middle toe or the ring finger i could see taking it literal to the point but this is the right hand (a very subjective word meaning place of honor as well as i'm sure it had other meanings), and the forehead (don't know about this one yet but still it seems like a subjective body part).
I don't know it was just me talking.
I don't really have any support for this notion i have. Same as taking the number 666 to be absolutely literal.

Tony · 12-04-2002, 02:31 PM

Just thinkin' out loud, but do you think there is any correlation between the mark of the beast on the forehead and wrist, and the message of Deuteronomy 6, the Shema, which was instructed to be placed on the forehead and wrist as well?

Would the tie then be that if Christianity were illegal at the time of John's writing, that anyone who claimed to be a follower of The Way, and not submit to the deity of Caesar, would therefore be denied the right to buy and sell, as Revelation 13 describes?

Feel free to tear this apart.