[JerryLove]

the reaction of the disciples is perhaps the best evidence.

Establish it outside the Bible.

What about the fact that people that don't belive in His existance are afraid to examine any evidence with an open mind?

Yea. What about the fact that most people who believe in his esitance refuse to look at it with an open mind?

But if it is just the question of did Jesus exist, there is not much debate on that.

There is on Earth. Where are you from?

The writings of Josephus mention a man named jesus who was considered a jewish mystic with a large following.

Yes... that paragraph begins "the Christians follow...". He is reciting Christian mythology.

Josephus was an historian as well as a Pharasee which seems to say that he had a vested interest in recording history accurately

But is far better know for writing apologetics.

but absolutely no reason to tell a fairy tale about Jesus to promote the movement.

Other than being mad at being imprisoned by an anti-Christian government?

While people may discount the gospels as vast overstatements and exagerations and some even think they are bold faced lies, it is difficult to discount the existance of Jesus because of Josephus and a few others

Not really.

For me, the apostle's reaction says most of it to me. No one's willing to die for something they know is a complete lie.

The branch dividians, the moonies, heaven's gate...

And the fact that the bible has been shown historically accurate in every detail

Really? How has the Garden of eden been shown? What are teh GPS coordinates of the tower of Babel? Where is noah's ark? Where is the proof of the egyptian plagues?

That and no one has come up with a reasonable alternative explaination for the missing body to refute the ressurrection claim.

Jesus was a fabrication based on Yesu.

11 of the 12 disciples (John who died in prison and Judas the traitor who killed himself being exceptions and Thaddeus who replaced Judas making the number 11) died martyr’s deaths while never denying seeing Christ after his resurrection.

And you know this how?

[gzusfreq]

JL:Establish it outside the Bible.

Me:
Why? Prove that the Bible isn't historically accurate.

JL:
Yea. What about the fact that most people who believe in his esitance refuse to look at it with an open mind?

Me:
I think your answer is a matter of opinion.

JL:
Other than being mad at being imprisoned by an anti-Christian government?

Me:
Where are you getting this information?

JL:
Really? How has the Garden of eden been shown? What are teh GPS coordinates of the tower of Babel? Where is noah's ark? Where is the proof of the egyptian plagues?

Me:
Name one 'Holy book' or religion, including yours, that explains the creation(or evoloution, your call) of all living things in the correct scientific order other than the bible. Why didn't you ask the GPS coordinates of Jericho or one of the numerous other places that only existed in the Bible until archaeologists proved the actually did exist?

JL:
Jesus was a fabrication based on Yesu.

Me:
You've proven my point on the 'open mind' thing.

[Vinland]

Travis..off the subject, but I used to live in Lubbock , TX

[Travis]

Originally posted by Vinland
Travis..off the subject, but I used to live in Lubbock , TX

I'm sorry.

[JerryLove]

Why? Prove that the Bible isn't historically accurate.

Why? Prove that it is.

I think your answer is a matter of opinion.

Of course it is; as was the person who accused non-Christians of having closed minds. Mostly it was a "good for the goose" retort; people who did not agree with the initial claim can ignore it.

Where are you getting this information?

Memory, I'll see if I can re-research.

Name one 'Holy book' or religion, including yours, that explains the creation(or evoloution, your call) of all living things in the correct scientific order other than the bible.

I cannot name one including the Bible.

Why didn't you ask the GPS coordinates of Jericho or one of the numerous other places that only existed in the Bible until archaeologists proved the actually did exist?

I don't understand your question. You claimed that the Bible "has been shown historically accurate in every detail". I picked a few details and asked you how they were shown to be historically accurate.

Please answer the question or admit that you cannot support your assertation.

You've proven my point on the 'open mind' thing.

I once believed that Jesus was a historical figure. I realized this was likely untrue within the past 2 years by looking at the evidence Christians presnted to prove it, and doing some reasearch on my own. My opinion has changed recently because of evidence, has yours?

Either way, the comment is ad-hominim. You are attaking me rather than my position.

[gzusfreq]

JL:
Why? Prove that it is.

Me:
Are you afraid to study the Bible with scientific and arcaeological evidence?

JL:
Of course it is; as was the person who accused non-Christians of having closed minds. Mostly it was a "good for the goose" retort; people who did not agree with the initial claim can ignore it.

Me:
I threw that in for amusement.

JL:
Memory, I'll see if I can re-research.

Me:
Good idea..

JL:
I cannot name one including the Bible.

Me:
You've never studied Genisis and held it up to scientific facts, have you?

JL:
I don't understand your question. You claimed that the Bible "has been shown historically accurate in every detail". I picked a few details and asked you how they were shown to be historically accurate.
Please answer the question or admit that you cannot support your assertation.

Me:
Your fabrication of a comment I supposedly made is not what I'd expect. Not every city or person in the Bible has been proven archaeologically...yet.

JL:
I once believed that Jesus was a historical figure. I realized this was likely untrue within the past 2 years by looking at the evidence Christians presnted to prove it, and doing some reasearch on my own. My opinion has changed recently because of evidence, has yours?

Me:
As a matter of fact, yes. You and I have a lot in common, we've just come to different conclusions (although I don't see how). One of us is wrong, but we won't know for sure until we breathe our last.

JL:
Either way, the comment is ad-hominim. You are attaking me rather than my position.

Me:
That was not my intent, but take it as you will.

[JerryLove]

Are you afraid to study the Bible with scientific and arcaeological evidence?

No. Are you?

But back to the claim. Show me the archeological evidence for the Garden of Eden. Show me the water above the stars. Show me the storehouses of hail. Show me the Ark.

You've never studied Genisis and held it up to scientific facts, have you?

I have, that's how I know it's utter hogwash.

Your fabrication of a comment I supposedly made is not what I'd expect. Not every city or person in the Bible has been proven archaeologically...yet.

It's not a fabrication... but it is a mis-cite. That claim was made by B.A.S.S.case in his post 10-22-2002 09:40 PM.

You responded to my response to him, so I continued with you.

As a matter of fact, yes. You and I have a lot in common, we've just come to different conclusions (although I don't see how). One of us is wrong, but we won't know for sure until we breathe our last.

That's fine; it's inaccurate to say "non-Christians are closed minded cause they don't believe what we do" (paraphrase).

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Jerry, you have a few problems, you picked a proof thats existence would have been destroyed if the Bible is true. Eden would be destroyed in the flood....

The vapor canopy, (which is not espoused only by Christians) would have collapsed at the flood leading to intensified uv resulting in shorter lifespans...

When the storehouses of hail were mentioned in Job its mentioned as something man can't see.

You intentionally picked proofs that according to the Bible can't be seen.

The ark, Alexander the great even mentioned it, why would a pagan greek mention it? And theres evidence that parts of it at least are still on Ararat.

Saddam beleives he has the foundations of Babel. (then again he beleives he is Nebuchadnezzar the second) but it would be in babylon in Iraq. Want to go over there and check it out right now?

[JerryLove]

Jerry, you have a few problems, you picked a proof thats existence would have been destroyed if the Bible is true. Eden would be destroyed in the flood....

Then you agree with me that "has been shown historically accurate in every detail" is completely untrue in respect to the Bible. It's only in response to that statement that I make the above demands.

You intentionally picked proofs that according to the Bible can't be seen.

I picked extreme examples I am sure don't have historical origins.

The ark, Alexander the great even mentioned it, why would a pagan greek mention it?

And the Bible mentions Baal, but you don't think he is real. Heck, I can mention the Ark, and Nirvanna, and pink unicorns. Mention really amounts to nothing.

And theres evidence that parts of it at least are still on Ararat.

Yea right. That urban legend goes back to at least the 70s. If it were there, it would have been proven.

Saddam beleives he has the foundations of Babel. (then again he beleives he is Nebuchadnezzar the second) but it would be in babylon in Iraq. Want to go over there and check it out right now?

Easy enough, enlist inthe Army Reserves.

Just a reminder, in case it has gotten glossed over. Unless you are arguing the Bible is "shown historically accurate in every detail", then you have no need to argue individual claims here. I am not saying "if you cannot show me X then the Bible isn't true", I'm saying "If you cannot show me X then the Bible hasn't been shown historically accurate in every detail.

Since you are not claiming that Bill (and others) you have little need of defending the Bible in this sub-set of the discussion.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

yes but a greek guy mentions seeing something that another faith unknown to him affirms?

as far as your "urban legend" goes, Ive heald photos from ark teams, seen the satelite photos and looked at there stuff... some evidence, but not conclusive proof, your "urban legend" has more evidence than string theory.

Jerry, Im saying you are using faulty arguments that could not be proven because the bible mentions how they would be destroyed.

I dont think Ill join the reserves, see I have this nasty allergy to Sarin Gas....

[JerryLove]

as far as your "urban legend" goes, Ive heald photos from ark teams, seen the satelite photos and looked at there stuff... some evidence, but not conclusive proof, your "urban legend" has more evidence than string theory.

Same with bigfoot and UFOs. But Aarat has not moved. It would be very easy to chopper a team there. Over 2.5 billion people are Jewesh, Christian, or Muslim; and every one of those would be in favor of discovering the ark. Yet in over 30 years, no one has bothered to drop in with a camera crew and verify. Why do you think that is?

Jerry, Im saying you are using faulty arguments that could not be proven because the bible mentions how they would be destroyed.

They are not daulty in regards to the claim "The bible whas been shown historically accurate in every detail". If that is true, then these details have been shown historically accurate.

If, as you say, they cannot be shown historically accurate because they were destroyed; then my point is made, the Bible is not "shown historically accurate in every detail".

I dont think Ill join the reserves, see I have this nasty allergy to Sarin Gas....

Fussy fussy. You get these 6 needle things to jam in 2 at a time. Of course, your hands are shaking by the time you realize you need to, and the equipment forces you to target you inner thigh (nasty spot for shaky hands)...

[BillSPrestonEsq]

reply, maybe you need to research this claim better before you mock too much . I know 2 guys there who climbed it and have compelling photos, some from the inside of the structure. but you need to realize the place its at is at the top of a high mountain where choppers dont fair so well cause the air is thin. Its also rather dangerous cause of location and arms dealers. (obviously youve never seen footage from the dozens of covert expeditions) but Im still not saying those alone are a proof, they could have been forged though that would be inconsistent with my knowledge of them. I have not been there, neither have you, neither of us have proof.

No thinks, I think Ill avoid dealing with saddam for now...

[gzusfreq]

JL:
No. Are you?

Me:
I have and still do, and it's amazing how accurate the bible is.

JL:
But back to the claim. Show me the archeological evidence for the Garden of Eden. Show me the water above the stars. Show me the storehouses of hail. Show me the Ark.

Me:
Show me one shread of evidence that even suggests evolution.

JL:
I have, that's how I know it's utter hogwash.

Me:
I think you need to check your research again.

JL:
It's not a fabrication... but it is a mis-cite. That claim was made by B.A.S.S.case in his post 10-22-2002 09:40 PM.

Me:
Fair enough.(nobodys perfect)

JL:
That's fine; it's inaccurate to say "non-Christians are closed minded cause they don't believe what we do" (paraphrase).

Me:
You misquoted me again. I said "What about the fact that people that don't belive in His existance are afraid to examine any evidence with an open mind?" I get that opinion from personal experience.

[JerryLove]

maybe you need to research this claim better before you mock too much . I know 2 guys there who climbed it and have compelling photos, some from the inside of the structure.

When you establish this compelling evidence (that every Christian and news website has somehow manged to not present) then you can feel free to point and laugh.

but you need to realize the place its at is at the top of a high mountain where choppers dont fair so well cause the air is thin.

The skydiving record is 100,000 feet (about 20 miles). How high is the mountain again?

Its also rather dangerous cause of location and arms dealers.

So was Kuwait, but we made itin there. You are talking about what would constitute (once validate) the most signifigant find in dozens of lifetime. Something that would destroy most of modern science and establish theology. the motivation is far too great for me to believe that a credable lead has not been exploited in over 3 decades.

I have and still do, and it's amazing how accurate the bible is.

Then you either have very messed up archeological data, or a very delusional mind.

Show me one shread of evidence that even suggests evolution.

Don't chang the subject. There is an assertation on the table (that the Bible is shown historically accurate in every detail). Show me the archeological evidence for the Garden of Eden. Show me the water above the stars. Show me the storehouses of hail. Show me the Ark.

I think you need to check your research again.

Feel free to cite. until then "you need to check yours again".

You misquoted me again. I said "What about the fact that people that don't belive in His existance are afraid to examine any evidence with an open mind?" I get that opinion from personal experience.

I did believe in his existance. And did examine the evidence with an open mind (or one biased in favor) and did discover that the evidence was lacking. I then changed my opinion.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Jerry, your skydiving record thing smells fishy. according to http://www.met-office.gov.uk/research/stratosphere/
your skydiver was in the stratosphere, but if memory serves, at around 30,000 ft your lungs freeze or explode. (nazi experiments proved this) I just looked at several helicopters flight ceilings, around 9000 feet seemed retty standard. This makes me doubt youve looked into what you are saying