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View Poll Results: Is Birth Control Sin?
Sin 18 26.87%
Righteous 51 76.12%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Unread 10-09-2002, 10:20 AM   #61
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my point being if your truly walkin with God then he will let you know right from wrong and there is no gray for us to debate
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good statment! that is key I think...

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Unread 10-09-2002, 10:33 AM   #62
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I am of the opinion that birth control is ok, as long as it ONLY prevents the sperm and the egg from uniting. If there is any kind of abortion or even the possibility of one, then I'm not for it. I agree with the arguments that have been put forth on my "side" of the debate. Simply because God says to be fruitful and multiply does not mean we can't do so in an orderly manner. I don't believe God desires us to be reckless, and sometimes, in our society, having a child can be a huge financial/etc. burden if you're not prepared.

Also, the point a couple people have made earlier is a good one, I think. I know TONS of people who have children in spite of "the pill" or other methods of birth control, or are products themselves of such an "accident". God isn't bound by some little pill or piece of rubber. Nothing is 100% effective, and God will give you a baby if he wants to. Heck, he made a VIRGIN give birth; he can work in spite of birth control...

My Intended wants to have 5 children! That seems like a lot to me, but I'll probably end up caving eventually. ;-) I think that's plenty fruitful. However, we'd like to have some "us" time to enjoy being married without being "tied down" right away. I think that time will be valuable to strengthen our relationship, get used to married life, and get financially established and whatnot. Then, some day, we'll start aching to have kids and we will. That's still being fruitful, it's just deferred a bit. I resent being told that's a sin. I love her more than life itself, and I'd like to have some time to devote to just her and us.
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Unread 10-09-2002, 11:19 AM   #63
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Originally posted by barberjo
This is an absurd argument. Being fruitful and multiplying does not necessarily mean "Have kids and keep having them until menopause." It doesn't mean "Have a baby, and then, when your body is ready again, have another one right away." It means having children.
From websters dictionary:

Main Entry: fruit·ful
Pronunciation: 'früt-f&l
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century
1 a : yielding or producing fruit b : conducive to an abundant yield
2 : abundantly productive
synonym see FERTILE


Main Entry: fer·tile
Pronunciation: 'f&r-t&l
Function: adjective
1 a : producing or bearing fruit in great quantities : PRODUCTIVE

Quote:
Scripture doesn't give us particulars on what the extent of that multiplication is.
No, not if you do not have a basic understanding of the language your Bible is printed in. However a small amount of research produces a meaning that is just the OPPOSITE of what you are proporting it to mean.

The following is a subjective oppinion: It seems you are uncomfortable with the possibility of not having so much control over your life; remember you have to lose it to gain it. ;o)
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Last edited by Hamil; 10-09-2002 at 11:25 AM.
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Unread 10-09-2002, 11:41 AM   #64
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I'm basically at the point where I don't believe there is a reight or wrong answer for everyone. Some are convicted of one thing, others are convicted differently.

Is that bad? No! For some it is wrong to do certain things that for others are perfectly acceptable. This is one reason why we are given the Holy Spirit, to discern these matters for ourselves, not necassarily force them on others.

Rom 14:19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.


The principle is universal, regardless of the food issue. If you believe BC is wrong, it is a sin for you to do it. If you believe BC is right, I pray that it is only because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and not for personal, selfish gain.

I havn't made up my mind either way yet. But I see evidence for both sides, and it's not something we need to be dogmatic about.

Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.
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Unread 10-09-2002, 11:55 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hamil

No, not if you do not have a basic understanding of the language your Bible is printed in. However a small amount of research produces a meaning that is just the OPPOSITE of what you are proporting it to mean.

The following is a subjective oppinion: It seems you are uncomfortable with the possibility of not having so much control over your life; remember you have to lose it to gain it. ;o)
But what does abundant mean? 3? 5? 7? 25?

The example that I gave was for a family with SEVEN kids. I think that would almost definately fall in to the "abundant" category. And, such a family could certainly use BC effectively to plan their family.


John
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Unread 10-09-2002, 11:57 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by barberjo
But what does abundant mean? 3? 5? 7? 25?

The example that I gave was for a family with SEVEN kids. I think that would almost definately fall in to the "abundant" category. And, such a family could certainly use BC effectively to plan their family.


John
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Unread 10-09-2002, 12:00 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hamil
The following is a subjective oppinion: It seems you are uncomfortable with the possibility of not having so much control over your life; remember you have to lose it to gain it. ;o)
what are you talking about? please don't give me a sunday school lesson like i'm 12 years old again. you know nothing about me and yet you basically say my life is not faith-based. you couldn't be more wrong. there have been things happen in the recent past that have caused me to have to live on faith alone. don't form an opinion on something you know nothing about. fact of the matter is this. you still have no argument against BC. how much is abundant? maybe it is two. for some that may be the case. so now you are trying to use a secular dictionary to prove what scripture is talking about. like i said before, you can believe it is wrong, that is fine with me, don't use it. but don't come out saying that if me and my wife use it, we are sinful creatures. that is just absurd. find a better argument than what you have.

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Unread 10-09-2002, 12:05 PM   #68
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Originally posted by smitty2622
sorry buddy it?s never irrelevant she?s got ya here where is the scripture?
no, scripture on fertility and the like IS irrelevant. just because it is scripture doesn't make it relevant to every subject.

Person A: Should I ask my girlfriend of 5 years to marry me?
Person B: Well, 2 Chronicles 28:1 says "Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem sixteen years."
Person A: What? How is that relevant?
Person B: It is scripture.

and anyway, there is some scripture that does pertain to this that doesn't imply birth control is a sin, like the verse extremeguy007 threw out.
Quote:
Originally posted by smitty2622
Let me help ya out there isn?t any.
right. well there is scripture on pleasing your wife and having sex where procreation isn't the focus.
Quote:
Originally posted by smitty2622
She makes some valid points.
well, sure.
Quote:
Originally posted by smitty2622
If you want to argue because you want to have sex as much as possible without consequences then go ahead but realize you don?t have Biblical backing.
huh? that isn't the argument at all.
Quote:
Originally posted by smitty2622
Oh just one more point it has been proven that Dolphins also have sex for personal enjoyment. But I doubt they have ant BC.
Touche. but Dolphins are smart, maybe they know something we don't

also, i agree with what donny said, the motives or ideas behind certain uses can defiantly be sinful.
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Unread 10-09-2002, 12:07 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by followerofJESUS
I'm basically at the point where I don't believe there is a reight or wrong answer for everyone. Some are convicted of one thing, others are convicted differently.
are you talking about in regards to this specific subject? or in general thoughts among the world?
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Unread 10-09-2002, 01:56 PM   #70
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If someone shows me where it says in the Bible "Thou shalt try to have children at all points in time. Thou shalt not use sexual relations for pleasure." Then I will believe the non b.c. side.
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Unread 10-09-2002, 01:58 PM   #71
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I just came upon this message board today and I'm very dissappointed to see Christians attacking each other over this issue. Several people seemed rather irate! While I think it is important to have a firm grasp of theology; you must come to a point with your Christian brothers and sisters to agree to disagree. As someone stated the verse where you need to work out your own salvation in fear and trembling; and the passage about eating food. What's wrong for some people; others are not convicted about.
My grandmother is covicted that she should wear her hair in a bun and wear long skirts and if she doesn't she is sinning; I am not convicted by that but I will never condemn her or become hostile towards her about it.

Said all that to say this: There are people in your neighborhood that are going to Hell because they do not know Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Quit wasting your time debating something that you know will never change another person's mind. Our church is currently in a major dispute over MUSIC! How petty and what a waste of time! Those of you that want to make a difference in the world: treat those who disagree with you with respect, let them know where you stand, and then MOVE ON! It's all about Jesus! Satan will do anything he can to keep your eyes off of Jesus. He uses petty arguments like this to do just that. Check out Proverbs where it talks about the 7 things GOD HATES! It's not birth control, murder, adultery, etc... It's dissension among the brethren, gossip, and slander...etc. Don't give the devil a foothold in your life! Move on and share Jesus with someone around you!!!
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Unread 10-09-2002, 02:06 PM   #72
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Unread 10-09-2002, 02:12 PM   #73
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no, scripture on fertility and the like IS irrelevant. just because it is scripture doesn't make it relevant to every subject.
How do you get that it is irrelevant? What is birth control for....to stop being fertile for the moment. How CAN you separate the two? Please explain further.

I don't see whats so hard about understanding that God is the one that opens and closes the womb, and maybe then opens and closes it again..etc.

The pro-bc seem to be working under the assumption that everytime someone has sex without any bc, they're going to get pregnant. If God wants you to do it just for enjoyment, she wouldn't get pregnant that time.

Quote:
Also, the point a couple people have made earlier is a good one, I think. I know TONS of people who have children in spite of "the pill" or other methods of birth control, or are products themselves of such an "accident". God isn't bound by some little pill or piece of rubber. Nothing is 100% effective, and God will give you a baby if he wants to. Heck, he made a VIRGIN give birth; he can work in spite of birth control...
This is working under the assumption that if God doesn't want you to do something (use birth control not to get pregnant) then he'll automatically stop you and work His plan anyways (get your wife pregnant even if you're under bc)

Is God sovereign enough to do this, absolutely; but is this the way God always works? No.

I think you can find a parallel here with the story of Balaam. God didn't want Balaam to go help the enemy. He told Balaam not to go, but Balaam kept pleading with God to go and God gave a sarcastic "yes, go ahead and go". God didn't stop Balaam from going, but it eventually cost Balaam serious consequences, his life.

You can keep on using birth control, but God might not always make the birth control INEFFECTIVE as to give you a child when He would prefer you to have one.

If you want further explaining...please say..



Quote:
Also, are single people of childbearing age sinning because they are not being fruitful and multiplying?
Adam and Eve were together/married before God said to be fruitful and multiply...so the answer is no.

Quote:
This is an absurd argument. Being fruitful and multiplying does not necessarily mean "Have kids and keep having them until menopause." It doesn't mean "Have a baby, and then, when your body is ready again, have another one right away." It means having children. Scripture doesn't give us particulars on what the extent of that multiplication is.

Some measure of planning goes on in our marriages about when to have kids. Whether we use a condom or the rhythm method, or abstinence, this is birth control - and it is responsible and wise.
.
This is a completely different subject than about being responsible and wise about relational problems or financial problems. God is clearly the one who gives and makes children. You are basically saying..."I don't believe I can financially handle this right now, so instaed of taking the chance of God giving me a child right now when I (emphasis on I) don't believe I can handle it; I'll use birth control."

or "God I don't trust you, I don't believe I can handle a child right now. If you give me a child right now, I wouldn't be able to handle it. God you would give me something I couldn't handle. So to be safe, I'll use BC"
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Unread 10-09-2002, 02:14 PM   #74
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i can see you are new here, have you read the thread at the very top of the theology page. it gives you some definitions to know about theology and how to debate and stuff. if you read that, i think that you will find that you have misread this forum. none of us are attacking others. yes, sometimes we can get heated, but we never forget the fact that we are brothers and sisters in Christ and love each other. i'm at work right now and am bored. there isn't anyone to witness to, so should i just sit and be bored, or discuss some theology with some other christians. please don't make an opinion about the people on these boards after just looking at a few threads. post a little and participate in some discussion. get to know some of these people and then decide.

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Unread 10-09-2002, 02:17 PM   #75
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the whole argument that God won't give you a child if he doesn't want to can be made on both sides, which as already happend. if you don't take BC, God won't give you a child if He doesn't want to. if you take BC, God will give you child in spite of the BC if He wants to. there still isn't any proof saying BC is sinning. the only proven is that God wants us to have children.

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