[Athanasius]

Originally posted by Hamil
Birth control was the intent of his actions not a "mere byproduct."

Whats with all the people brand new to the board coming in swinging?

Hamil, open your Bible...now read the context...if you don't have a Bible...here is the story of Onan:

7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death.
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother."
9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother.
10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.

Good! OK, now the context blatently states that the sin of Onan was that he didn't fulfill his duty to her (as stated by the law) ... and that duty (under the law) was to give her a son, that wasn't to be his...but was his brothers.

This sin was specific to Levitical law that has no authority over us today. The sin specifically was not about a "normal guy" withdrawing from his wife to prevent contraception. It was a special case under a law that was only applicable to a specific portion of the Jews, and is no longer applicable to anyone.

This passage has nothing to do with contraception, nor is it applicable to modern days...get off of it!

Sheesh...

[Dr. Doom]

so what if slips and falls while walking on a pole, racks himself (ala any live disney movie) and cannot have sex for a while. but wait! he and his wife know theyare supposed to have kids. how sinful of him!

[joslar15]

Originally posted by BillSPrestonEsq
, world population threshold smeshhold, ever crossed this country in a car and seen the teeming masses in iowa? this world can support far more than we dream of. besides bc is a new concept in the course of history.... ever think of that?

Threshold smeshhold:klol:

[Dr. Worm]

I don't think any of us could put it better than our British brethren did:


There are Jews in the world, there are Buddhists,
there are Hindus and Mormons and then
there are those that follow Mohammed -but-
I've never been one of them.
I am a Roman Catholic
and have been since before I was born,
and the one thing they say about Catholics is
they'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on, you're
a Catholic the moment dad came
...Because...
Every sperm is sacred,
every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate. (2x)
Let the heathens spill theirs,
on the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
each sperm that can't be found.
Every sperm is wanted,
every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed,
in your neighborhood.
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
spill theirs just anywhere
but God loves those who treat their
semen with more care.
(misc choruses)
Every sperm is useful,
every sperm is fine.
God needs everybodies,
mine, and mine, and mine.
Let the pagans spill theirs
on mountain hill and plain.
God shall strike them down for
each sperm that's spilled in vain.

Dare you argue with Monty Python?

[Travis]

The argument that every sperm is sacred (I know that was a joke, Dr. Worm but some people really think that and that is what I am addressing ) or that contraception is wrong is extremely ignorant and ridiculous. What does the body do automatically when a man had not had an orgasm in a very long time? A nocturnal emission- he ejaculates in his sleep. God programmed this into the human body; it is a biological function. Millions of sperm die in the process with no chance of ever uniting with an egg. If contraception was wrong, this would also be wrong, as would having sex with a female who is unable to reproduce. People who say contraception is wrong have obviously not thought things through.

[Yojimbo]

Whoever said there won't be an overpopulation problem because there was plenty of room in Iowa doesn't have a good idea of how population distribution works. How many mainland Chinese did you see in our vast Iowan fields? Besides, I like Iowa empty as it is.

[xsefcx]

I personally have no problem with birth control, as long as you are open to the thought of having children, I do not agree with chemical birth control, it destroys the concieved baby, thats abortion. You have to make the call with your spouse that is it.

why doesn't anyone who thinks bc is ok use scripture?

God is Sovereign in birth. He opens & shuts the womb; He blesses with children. (The following verses are NOT an exhaustive list.)

It is GOD Who opens and shuts the womb: Genesis 20:17-18; 29:31-33; 30:1-2,6,17-18, 20, 22, 23; I Samuel 1:6, 11, 19, 20;

God helps and participates in the process of bringing forth children: Genesis 4:1, 25; 21:1-2; Ruth 4:13; I Samuel 2:20-21; Psalm 139:13, 16; Luke 1:21-25, 57-58

Procreation is part of God's design and was commanded by God at the creation: Gen. 1:27-28

God multiplies children: Genesis 16:10; 17: 2,20; 22:17; 26:4, 24; 28:3; 41:52; 48:4; Exodus 32:13; Deuteronomy 1:10,11; 28:63; 30:5, Joshua 24:3; I Chronicles 27: 23; Psalm 105:24; 107:38; Isaiah 26:15; 51:2; Jeremiah 30: 19; 33:22; Ezra 36:10-11, 37; 37:26



The Bible nowhere encourages B.C., but everywhere condones fertility!

Pro-child verses: Psalm 127:3-5; 128; I Chronicles 20:4-5; Exodus 23:25-26; Proverbs 17:6

Children are a blessing that comes from obeying God: Leviticus 26:9; Deuteronomy 28:1-4; 6:3; 7:13; 13:17 ff

Pro-Fertility verses: Leviticus 20:18 (abstaining during monthly periods increases chance of fertilization after period); Genesis 1:27-28 (The command to be fruitful has never been revoked); I Cor 7:3-5 (Not compatible with "Natural Family Planning")

Anti-Infertility Verses: Infertile manners of intercourse were condemned: Beastiality (Leviticus 20:15, 16), Homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), Withdrawal (Genesis 38:6-10, Deuteronomy 25:5-10). In fact, all of these things incurred the death penalty. There was no death penalty for improper manners of intercourse which were yet fertile (Fornication and polygamy).

******Semen is referred to as offspring even before it joins the egg: Hebrews 7:9-10; Job 10:8-11*******

Childlessness is a curse: Leviticus 20:20-21; Hosea 9:10-17

Can someone please explain how birth control is possibly a good thing... because if it does not please, honor, and glorify God, then what buisness is it of the Christian??

[followerofJESUS]

I don't think we're getting as much debate out of this verse as we could.

What about this part of the verse?

he spilled his semen on the ground

So what do you believe about this bobtheveggie? (Or anyone else for that matter)

[Travis]

Originally posted by xsefcx
I personally have no problem with birth control, as long as you are open to the thought of having children

Huh? Haha. That's silly. Why would it matter?

Originally posted by xsefcx
I do not agree with chemical birth control, it destroys the concieved baby, thats abortion.

Huh? Maybe the morning after pill, but not the pill a woman takes to keep from becomming pregnant.

Originally posted by followerofJESUS
"he spilled his semen on the ground"

So what? His sin was disobeying and defying God intentionally, which he did by doing this. That OT law no longer applies (the one he broke about impregnating the sister-in-law) so it is irrelevant today.

[Dr. Doom]

Originally posted by phil23
why doesn't anyone who thinks bc is ok use scripture?

there's lots of stiff scripture doesn't address directly so it isn't always so cut and dried.

Originally posted by phil23
God is Sovereign in birth. He opens & shuts the womb; He blesses with children. (The following verses are NOT an exhaustive list.)

It is GOD Who opens and shuts the womb: Genesis 20:17-18; 29:31-33; 30:1-2,6,17-18, 20, 22, 23; I Samuel 1:6, 11, 19, 20;

yeah? and how does this tel us God doesn't want us to use contraceptives? God closed the womb, that doesn't effect whether a wife and husband can have sex without the goal of having children. actually, if the womb was closed, Abram was just having sex taht whole time with no possiblity of having a kid! holy smokes!

Originally posted by phil23
God helps and participates in the process of bringing forth children: Genesis 4:1, 25; 21:1-2; Ruth 4:13; I Samuel 2:20-21; Psalm 139:13, 16; Luke 1:21-25, 57-58

yeah, maybe that is why sometimes woman get pregnant despite using birth control.

Originally posted by phil23
Procreation is part of God's design and was commanded by God at the creation: Gen. 1:27-28

so? how does that tell us sex is limited to that?

Originally posted by phil23
God multiplies children: Genesis 16:10; 17: 2,20; 22:17; 26:4, 24; 28:3; 41:52; 48:4; Exodus 32:13; Deuteronomy 1:10,11; 28:63; 30:5, Joshua 24:3; I Chronicles 27: 23; Psalm 105:24; 107:38; Isaiah 26:15; 51:2; Jeremiah 30: 19; 33:22; Ezra 36:10-11, 37; 37:26

ya know, not everything that pertains to offspring pertains to birth control.

Originally posted by phil23
The Bible nowhere encourages B.C., but everywhere condones fertility!

though i hate this argument whenever it is used, does the Bible encourage tying your shoes?

Originally posted by phil23
Pro-child verses: Psalm 127:3-5; 128; I Chronicles 20:4-5; Exodus 23:25-26; Proverbs 17:6

Children are a blessing that comes from obeying God: Leviticus 26:9; Deuteronomy 28:1-4; 6:3; 7:13; 13:17 ff

neither of these show that birth control is a sin. it is no secert God likes babies. but He also likes to see us happywith our spouse, and i've heard that sex usually makes people kinda happy.

Originally posted by phil23
Pro-Fertility verses: Leviticus 20:18 (abstaining during monthly periods increases chance of fertilization after period); Genesis 1:27-28 (The command to be fruitful has never been revoked); I Cor 7:3-5 (Not compatible with "Natural Family Planning")

God wants us to have offspring. so what? how does not revoking a command change it to fit what you want it to say?

Originally posted by phil23
Anti-Infertility Verses: Infertile manners of intercourse were condemned: Beastiality (Leviticus 20:15, 16), Homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), Withdrawal (Genesis 38:6-10, Deuteronomy 25:5-10). In fact, all of these things incurred the death penalty. There was no death penalty for improper manners of intercourse which were yet fertile (Fornication and polygamy).

now this is your strongest argument. still, it doesn't tell us that a man and wife are limited to only having sex with a little bundle of joy in mind.

Originally posted by phil23
******Semen is referred to as offspring even before it joins the egg: Hebrews 7:9-10; Job 10:8-11*******

SAY WHAT??!! how the heck do you see this?

Originally posted by phil23
Childlessness is a curse: Leviticus 20:20-21; Hosea 9:10-17

yeah, because it is irriversible as opposed to choosing not to have kids.

Originally posted by phil23
Can someone please explain how birth control is possibly a good thing... because if it does not please, honor, and glorify God, then what buisness is it of the Christian??

because it lets a man and woman enjoy one of the highest forms of intimacy that God gave them as a gift. THAT pleases and glorifys God.

[followerofJESUS]

So what? His sin was disobeying and defying God intentionally, which he did by doing this. That OT law no longer applies (the one he broke about impregnating the sister-in-law) so it is irrelevant today.

Well, that's not exactly what I meant. Of course maybe you did answer my question in your own way. I mean, is it right or wrong to do what Onan did nowadays. I know it was wrong for him to disobey the law, and I know he was not punished for spilling his semen. Just want to know what you guys think and why.

[Travis]

Originally posted by phil23
why doesn't anyone who thinks bc is ok use scripture?

Because it never says it is ok. So what? It never says it is ok to drive a car either...

Originally posted by phil23
God is Sovereign in birth. He opens & shuts the womb; He blesses with children.

Relevancy?

Originally posted by phil23
God helps and participates in the process of bringing forth children:

Relevancy? Why does that necessarily mean that everyone should bear children?

Originally posted by phil23
Procreation is part of God's design and was commanded by God at the creation: Gen. 1:27-28

...To those people at that time. Surely you aren't saying that God commands everyone to procreate. Some people are incapable of doing so and others have diseases such as AIDS that would be passed on to their children. It is better for them to not procreate.

Originally posted by phil23
God multiplies children:

Relevancy? Why does that necessarily mean that everyone should have tons of children?

Originally posted by phil23
The Bible nowhere encourages B.C., but everywhere condones fertility!

Irrelevant. It was never required.

Originally posted by phil23
Children are a blessing that comes from obeying God: Leviticus 26:9; Deuteronomy 28:1-4; 6:3; 7:13; 13:17 ff

Relevancy? That doesn’t mean it is wrong to not have children.

Originally posted by phil23
Pro-Fertility verses:

Irrelevant. Fertility is not a requirement. Many Christians are physically unable to reproduce.

Originally posted by phil23
Anti-Infertility Verses: Infertile manners of intercourse were condemned: Beastiality [...] Homosexuality

That’s not birth control and is COMPLETELY irrelevant. It was wrong of you to even mention this in the context of what we were talking about. You are saying that having sex with an infertile woman is the same as having sex with a dog or anal sex with a man! You sin by even saying such horrible things that offend devout believers in Christ. I demand an apology for those ignorant and downright despicable statements.

Originally posted by phil23
Withdrawal

Already been dealt with.

Originally posted by phil23
Semen is referred to as offspring even before it joins the egg: Hebrews 7:9-10; Job 10:8-11

I will read those verses as soon as you respond to my post about nocturnal emissions, or have your parents not had that talk with you yet?

Originally posted by phil23
Childlessness is a curse: Leviticus 20:20-21; Hosea 9:10-17

In those cases. Tell that to my parents who would not have adopted me if it weren’t for my mother’s inability to conceive children. I bet they wouldn’t trade away that “curse” for anything

[Travis]

Originally posted by followerofJESUS
Well, that's not exactly what I meant. Of course maybe you did answer my question in your own way. I mean, is it right or wrong to do what Onan did nowadays. I know it was wrong for him to disobey the law, and I know he was not punished for spilling his semen. Just want to know what you guys think and why.

I would think it woud be fine. It was never a sin to withdraw, it was a sin to not follow God's specific command at the time.

[yocreoenel]

Originally posted by Travis
Huh? Maybe the morning after pill, but not the pill a woman takes to keep from becomming pregnant.

Actually Travis, "the pill" does cause an abortion in some (if not many-- but I'm not sure about the percentage so don't hold me to it) cases.

Though, often time probably, the egg will never be fertalized because of the pill, it can cause a fertilized egg, or a person who just hasn't formed all the way yet, to not stick to the lining in the uterus. The pill breaks down this lining

I've pretty much setteled on the idea that my wife and I will use condoms. Because I'd rather not ever have to think of the possibility that we would cause her body to do that.