Tolkien a Christian?

**Athanasius** · 10-04-2002, 05:12 PM

This has probably been covered...but I wanted to respond to a statement "rredboy" made in the "Youth Rooms" thread...if anyone else has thoughts, please feel free to add them...

Quote:

Originally posted by rredboy
Re: Tolkien
My pastor tore him a new one and showed me several quotes that prove he was an idiot.

&

For the tolien christian myth

http://dianedew.com/tolkien.htm

if i find more i will post it in a new thread.

Hahaha! Give me a couple of your pastors articles, sermons, and what not...the very fact that he thinks Tolkien is not a Christian (especially based off of this drivel) proves that he is a moron...sorry for the personal attack on him. But it's just sad that a guy who could take this article and be convinced that "Tolkien wasn't a Christian" should actually be pastoring somewhere. Maybe you should think about learning from someone with a little more upstairs...

Your reference to "dianedew.com" is a pitiful resource (for your argument) at best.

Tolkien's references to magic in letters #155 refer to:
1. He doesn't really care if "magic" is real
2. "Magic" as it pertains to his stories

I don't see the problem here...please help me see the light?

Letter #131 (now in context - what a novel concept!)

"...Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its `faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.
For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary `real' world. (I am speaking, of course. of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days.)... In the cosmogony there is a fall: a fall of Angels we should say. Though quite different in form, of course, to that of Christian myth. These tales are `new', they are not directly derived from other myths and legends, but they must inevitably contain a large measure of ancient wide-spread motives or elements. After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of `truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear."

He's talking about the fall in literary terminology, and he is not arguing the "truthfulness" of the fall of Angels. If you would look in your dictionary...the word "myth" does not imply that the stories are "not true"

myth Pronunciation Key (mth) - Dictionary.Com
n.
1
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.

The Letter references to the fact that he was a "Roman Catholic" (Letters #195 & #213) certainly do not preclude him from being "Christian" and it's a ridiculous claim to make. That would also exclude everyone from Augustine & St. Francis of Asissi to G.K. Chesterton and other great Roman Catholic Christians...not to mention the fact that, as Ridley has stated Anglicans, some Lutherans, and the other Catholic Rites all claim to be "Catholic" as well (big "C" not little "c") ... Which then would have you excluding C.S. Lewis, Martin Luther, etc!

She states that: "Tolkien also wrote illustrated letters to his children as if from Santa Claus - published in a book."
LOL! What kind of bearing does this have on his Christianity?

She seems to say that because he loved Northern mythology, he wasn't a Christian...this is ridiculous as well...just because you read about something doesn't mean that you are *pow* instantly pagan. I love Chinese food...does that make me Chinese?

This has to be one of the best quotes from her silly article: "Interesting note: The literary group (The Inklings) met in a pub. They threw around their ideas while drinking beer."
I wonder what she thinks about Jesus Christ and his disciples drinking wine?! LOL! Her ignorance and (non-biblical) predjudices are ridiculous.

Please reference something that does not take Tolkein horribly out of context and use un-biblical "rules" that the author pulls out of the air to be the demarkation between "Christian" and "Non-Christian"

Scott · 10-04-2002, 05:39 PM

And that was that....

Nicely put.

**Athanasius** · 10-04-2002, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott
And that was that....

Nicely put.

Thanks.

Luke · 10-04-2002, 07:21 PM

Tolkien led C.S. Lewis to Christ too...

**Athanasius** · 10-04-2002, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luke
Tolkien led C.S. Lewis to Christ too...

Yes...but Lewis wrote Fantasy as well...he must not be a Christian either.

I'm so funny.

Anyway, good reading on Tolkein (and Fantasy Literature in general) in this quarter's Credenda/Agenda

**meatfinger** · 10-04-2002, 11:35 PM

I'm not going to disagree that Tolkien was a Christian, anyone who says he wasn't honestly doesn't know what they are talking about. But I think the whole "finding Christianity in the LOTR" is ridiculous. It's not meant as an allegory to Christianity, beyond the simple struggle between good and evil. I think people just figure "CS Lewis wrote allegorical books, and was good friends with Tolkien. So Tolkien must have written allegorical books too." LOTR was not meant to blatantly portray Christianity.

SoccerAaron · 10-05-2002, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott
And that was that....

Nicely put.

Ditto

maadio · 10-05-2002, 05:22 PM

Quote:

This has to be one of the best quotes from her silly article: "Interesting note: The literary group (The Inklings) met in a pub. They threw around their ideas while drinking beer."

It's especially silly since one of the "Inklings" fellows was C.S. Lewis. I'd pay good money to see someone trying to disprove Lewis's faith.

Oh and there's also magic in the Chronicles of Narnia. The author of Mere Christianity must have been a pagan devil-worshipper too...

Stupid people make me sad.

-Andy

rredboy · 10-05-2002, 05:58 PM

i heard from a guest speaker at my church that CS lewis denyed the suffieciency of christs death, to cover sin. And about that site, i didn't look hard into it so my apologies, i try to quickly sort through the retarded ones, but i agree with you on that site, but however your arrogance has offended me, and how many others arrogance jumping in on it makes it worse. Im not afraid to admit i was mistaken, but tolkien is not a christian, he was a catholic, and in my opinion catholics are not going to like their eternity.

Jay42 · 10-05-2002, 06:00 PM

It was mostly nicely put, Mr. Bob.

To me, you too closely approached an ad hominem in your criticism of rredboy's pastor. For all you know, he could be a brilliant pastor and was merely a go-between when someone else gave him a URL to give to rredboy.

The most frightening and convincing debaters to me are the ones who simply refuse to ruffle their feathers.

Fear the Luke!

**Athanasius** · 10-05-2002, 06:21 PM

Well...there's what's right and there's what's right...and never the twain shall meet.

I believe that rredboy's pastor (as demonstrated by his opinions) is lacking.

He may be a good guy...and a nice pastor...however, he isn't a good teacher if he's spreading this stuff around his flock's pasture.
The fact that I attacked him personally in such a rude manner (and he couldn't defend himself here) was not right of me. I will however say that his ideas are lacking factual evidence.

I withdraw the "moron" insult, and apologize to rredboy.

Peace.

rredboy · 10-05-2002, 07:38 PM

For everyones info, my pastor did not give me that website, when i talked about tolien the other day i tried my best to find the quote. Tolkien made a statement that is very antichrist in nature, i will find this quote becuase i saw it with my own eyes, Tolkien is a catholic with a few very unscriptural beleifs. So do not think that you have disproved me, just that specific site. I accept your apology, but it still had some arrogance about your last quote, if not, i apologise.

Travis · 10-05-2002, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rredboy
but tolkien is not a christian, he was a catholic

You speak of him as though he was alive and as though he were dead in the same sentence... lol

Quote:

Originally posted by rredboy
and in my opinion catholics are not going to like their eternity.

Your opinion is irrelevant.

NathanGrimm · 10-05-2002, 08:04 PM

A question for rredboy: Where exactly did you see this "antichrist is nature" quote and if you can't find it, please can you tell us what it was about?
Nathan

rredboy · 10-05-2002, 09:27 PM

antichrist is nature??

where did you get that i said antichrist IN nature but my bad the word i should have used is

ANTIBIBLICAL

the quote was about his myths being his way to God. I heard from a guest speaker (i don't put too much weight in what he says, he tends to "overdue" sometimes) that he denyed the total depravity of man.

i will do my best to find it.

Also for everyones reference, Tolkien considered himself a ROMAN CATHOLIC, whose leader claimed to be the physical representation of christ!!! If you are not Roman Catholic i am not talking about the other *atholic religions.