Interesting Baptism Issue

brown07 · 10-02-2002, 10:41 AM

This is a question for all you folks who support infant baptism on the basis of it being the covenantal seal.

My church was recently approached by a woman who wanted her infant grandchild baptised. The church does not baptise infants whose parents are both not believers. This is the case here. The grandmother is a believer, but neither of the parents are. So, the church said that they would not baptise the baby. Needless to say, the grandmother was upset and had her husband call the church (he then began to yell and cuss them out and tell them how unChristlike they were being - oh, the irony).

My thought is that this is the correct decision. Both parents, even if they were baptised as infants and gained entrance into the covenant family, are now non-believers and are covenant breakers, placing them outside the covenant. So, there is no basis for baptising this baby.

Thoughts?

**Ridley's Own** · 10-02-2002, 11:01 AM

I don't know. Normally in the Anglican Rite of Baptism, the promises are made by the parents and/or Godparents. Why can the Grandparent not make those promises? Perhaps the rite is different?

In any case, I have a hard time justifying denying the sacrament to anyone.

Luke · 10-02-2002, 11:05 AM

I agree with the decision. The child is not part of the covenant community. Is the grandparent the person who is raising the child? No. (If she was, then my vote would change...). Any vows she took would be meaningless, and it would be worthless for the child since he would not be raised as part of the covenant community. I would also note that the child isn't going to be part of the church (his parents won't take him), so it's kind of silly to baptize him into the church to just need to excommunicate him in a few years.

When the child is grown, he can join the church himself if he desires.

bkbroiler · 10-02-2002, 11:13 AM

I agree that the baby should not be allowed to be baptised if he/she is not going to be brought up in the Christian way. But, maybe if the child is baptised in the covenant, then the Grandmother can use this some day to try and speak to the child about Christ. You sure wouldn't want her to be told later on in life that she was not baptised because of her parents. I guess it would be interesting to know the grandmothers motivation.

Luke · 10-02-2002, 11:20 AM

Who cares what the motive is? There are no believing parents, so the child is unclean (1 Cor. 7).

Chico · 10-02-2002, 11:20 AM

would someone please explain to me about this whole infant baptism and the covenant thing. cuz it sounds like you are saying that the infant that is baptized is brought into the christian family by that baptism, even though they aren't old enough to even comprehend salvation. please explain so i understand what you are talking about, b/c i don't think that is what you mean.

chris

Luke · 10-02-2002, 11:22 AM

Infant Baptism in Three Points:
1. Circumscision was the covenant seal in the OT, and it was given to infants.

2. Baptism is the covenant seal in the NT, so it should also be given to infants unless commanded otherwise (which we aren't).

3. Baptism accomplishes for us now what circumscision did in the OT.

Chico · 10-02-2002, 11:27 AM

if baptism is the replacement for circumcision, then when Paul speaks of circumcision and how we don't have to do it anymore because it is the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit that seals us now, that says that baptism isn't needed either, b/c if the first think isn't needed at all, then their is no need for a replacement. we all know that the Bible does tell us we need to be baptized, but i don't think it is a replacement of circumcision. the Bible is pretty clear that we just don't need that anymore.

chris

brown07 · 10-02-2002, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chico
if baptism is the replacement for circumcision, then when Paul speaks of circumcision and how we don't have to do it anymore because it is the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit that seals us now, that says that baptism isn't needed either, b/c if the first think isn't needed at all, then their is no need for a replacement. we all know that the Bible does tell us we need to be baptized, but i don't think it is a replacement of circumcision. the Bible is pretty clear that we just don't need that anymore.

chris

The reason that we don't need it any more is because we have baptism instead. It is clear that God still desires for the covenantal seal to be applied.

Most of the issue in the NT is whether or not to circumcize gentile converts. Because the seal of the Old Covenant was restricted to the Israelites, it need not be applied to the gentiles. Instead, we have baptism.

Chico · 10-02-2002, 11:36 AM

is there some scripture you might could give me that says this. maybe i've missed it or something. but i know i can give you scripture that tells us that it is the Holy Spirit that seals us, not baptism. please cite some examples for me to look at.

chris

brown07 · 10-02-2002, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chico
is there some scripture you might could give me that says this. maybe i've missed it or something. but i know i can give you scripture that tells us that it is the Holy Spirit that seals us, not baptism. please cite some examples for me to look at.

chris

Here are the clear parallels between circumcision and baptism.

Baptism and Circumcistion Both:

Are initiatory rites: Gen 17:10-11, Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38-39, 8:12-13

Signify an inward reality: Rom. 2:28-29, Col. 2:11-12, Phil. 3:3

Picture the death of the old man of sin: Rom. 6:3-7, Col. 2:11-12

Represent Repentance: Jer. 4:4, 9:25, Lev. 26:40-41, Acts 2:38

Represent Regeneration: Rom. 2:28-29, Titus 3:5

Represent Justification by Faith: Rom 4:11-12, Col 2:11-14

Represent a cleansed heart: Deut 10:16, 30:6, Isa. 52:1, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-7

Represent union and communion w/ God: Gen 17:7, Ex 19:5-6, Deut 7:6, Heb. 8:10

Indicate Citizenship in Israel: Gen 17:4, Gal. 3:26-29, Eph. 2:12-13, 4:5

Indicate Separation from the World: Ex. 12:48, II Cor. 6:14-18, Eph 2:12

Can lead to either blessings or curses: Rom 2:25, I Cor. 10:1-12, 11:28-30

[Taken from Children of the Promise by Robert R. Booth]

Dr. Worm · 10-02-2002, 11:52 AM

Ah crap, two threads.....

Quote:

3. Baptism accomplishes for us now what circumscision did in the OT.

Which is what?

By the way, I don't understand this covenant thing at all. It doesn't make sense. What is the point? Members of the covenant do not necessarily go to heaven, and people can go to heaven without being members of the covenant. So I have to wonder, whats the point?

brown07 · 10-02-2002, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Worm
Ah crap, two threads.....

Which is what?

By the way, I don't understand this covenant thing at all. It doesn't make sense. What is the point? Members of the covenant do not necessarily go to heaven, and people can go to heaven without being members of the covenant. So I have to wonder, whats the point?

That's not accurate. It is my belief that all members of the covenant go to heaven. Those who at some point reject Christ are now covenant breakers who are cut off from the covenant and removed from the covenant family. So, if someone is born to believers, they are in the covenant family. Baptism is given as a seal of this covenant. If they later reject Christ (either outright or in their heart) they are cut off from the covenant until they repent and are regenerated.

And none who are not part of the covenant will go to heaven. Whenever anyone becomes a believer, they are adopted into God's covenant family (whether or not the seal has been given). Therefore, to say that there are some who are not in the covenant who will go to heaven is to say that there are some who do not believe who will go to heaven.

Chico · 10-02-2002, 12:07 PM

brown07,

i just want to ask one other question. first of all, i'm not saying that i disagree with infant baptism, just questioning why it is necessary. and second of all, after looking at the list of scripture you gave me, which i thank you for, i noticed one thing.

Quote:

Picture the death of the old man of sin: Rom. 6:3-7, Col. 2:11-12
Represent Repentance: Jer. 4:4, 9:25, Lev. 26:40-41, Acts 2:38
Represent Regeneration: Rom. 2:28-29, Titus 3:5
Represent Justification by Faith: Rom 4:11-12, Col 2:11-14
Represent a cleansed heart: Deut 10:16, 30:6, Isa. 52:1, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-7
Represent union and communion w/ God: Gen 17:7, Ex 19:5-6, Deut 7:6, Heb. 8:10
Indicate Citizenship in Israel: Gen 17:4, Gal. 3:26-29, Eph. 2:12-13, 4:5
Indicate Separation from the World: Ex. 12:48, II Cor. 6:14-18, Eph 2:12

there is no way baptism can signify these things without salvation occurring first. scripture tells us that through salvation the old is made new, that we are regenerated by the Spirit, that by faith we are saved and justified, that the blood of Christ cleanses us, that without Christ we can't get to God, that without Christ we are not heirs to the throne, and that with Christ we are not to be conformed to this world and receive that power from the Spirit. all the things you listed are things that occur at or after salvation.

chris

Chico · 10-02-2002, 12:09 PM

also, i just read your last post, and now see that our disagreement lies much deeper than baptism. please show me where scripture tells us we are born into the body of Christ. if that is true, then the whole Gospel contradicts itself.

chris