Interesting Baptism Issue

seungk5 · 10-06-2002, 12:19 AM

yeah, when i meant that, i meant that Christian ceremony or events such as baptism is done because God has commanded us to and bible and told us to. That's why it's ok because bible commands it.

infant baptism, bible doesnt say it, so it's not ok for us to just assume that it's ok by God, i am sure God would have written that if it's nesecsarry.

Luke · 10-06-2002, 03:25 AM

Paedobaptists do not assume that infant baptism is okay--we believe it is necessary to be done to infants because of circumscision, the older covenantal seal, being explicitly stated (actually commanded) as having infants being included, and because we see no command to change this.

Now, if you disagree with this (e.g. WooTang), that's one thing, but it's getting old to hear you say over and over again that we're just saying it's okay because the Bible never prohibits it--that is not the paedobaptist belief.

And I think God would have written it if He wanted us to change from applying the covenant seal to believers and their children to believers only. Why did He leave out that important command?

seungk5 · 10-06-2002, 12:17 PM

ok let's say God commandd that to circumcision which he did.

but bible never says circumcision is replaced by baptism.

they are similar but God never SAID IT

if God didnt say it why do it?

one more question than

didn't God say baptism is for believers in the bible? it's after you are saved.....

than how come u guys baptise infants? isn't that going against the bible because infants are not saved?

seungk5 · 10-06-2002, 12:19 PM

to hear you say over and over again that we're just saying it's okay because the Bible never prohibits it--that is not the paedobaptist belief.

than waht is your beleif?

i dont care about your belief.

i care about what God has commanded which surely isn't a infant baptism. because God said baptise who are saved and believers. right there, and you are going against that by baptising infants.

there is no need for it....

ThePlaidRanger · 10-06-2002, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seungk5
ok let's say God commandd that to circumcision which he did.

but bible never says circumcision is replaced by baptism.

they are similar but God never SAID IT

if God didnt say it why do it?

Colossians 2:11-12
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Quote:

one more question than

didn't God say baptism is for believers in the bible? it's after you are saved.....

No.

Quote:

than how come u guys baptise infants? isn't that going against the bible because infants are not saved?

bible never say baptise only believers. bible just says baptise.

isn't saying infants can't be baptised when they were circumsised going against god?

bible never says baptise only believers.

why do you go against bible?

ThePlaidRanger · 10-06-2002, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seungk5
to hear you say over and over again that we're just saying it's okay because the Bible never prohibits it--that is not the paedobaptist belief.

Is it too much to ask that you use the quote button?

Quote:

than waht is your beleif?

i dont care about your belief.

Then why ask? Obviously you do care.

Quote:

i care about what God has commanded which surely isn't a infant baptism. because God said baptise who are saved and believers.

Where?

Quote:

right there, and you are going against that by baptising infants.

Right where? I don't see Scripture, or even a reference. All I see is Baptist propaganda.

Quote:

there is no need for it....

It has been quite adequately explained why there is a need for it.

seungk5 · 10-06-2002, 02:08 PM

quote: bible never say baptise only believers. bible just says baptise.

WHAT? ARE YOU JOKING ME? YOU GUYS SAID YOUR SELF UP THERE, PAEDOBAPTIST PEOPLE, YOU GUYS ADMITED THAT IT'S FOR BELIEVERS THAT REQUIREMENT FOR BAPTISM IS THAT PERSON HAS ACCEPTED CHRIST.

NOW YOUR SAYING BIBLE DOESNT? LOL GO DIG UP SOME VERSES IN THE FORUM HERE. SOME WHERE AROUND 5 TO 8

IT SAYS PLENTY plenty PLENTY OF VERSES THAT SAYS BAPTISM IS FOR BELIEVERS.

if u think bible just says baptise, should go baptising non christians? should i go to school and say when we are swimming " let's baptise guys" dig ur heads in the water and you are saved?

NO THE SAME WAY INFANTS ARE NOT SAVED OR HAS ACCPETED CHRIST SO THEY SHALL NOT BE BAPTISED.

seungk5 · 10-06-2002, 02:13 PM

ridley's own: Q What is required of us at Baptism?

A It is required that we renounce Satan, repent of our sins, and
accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Q Why then are infants baptized?

A Infants are baptized so that they can share citizenship in the
Covenant, membership in Christ, and redemption by God.

ridelye's own is FOR infant baptism...... he said him self we have to repent and accept Jesus and Lord and Savior. also many other verses say that.

infants do not fit all the requirement. not even one....

infants doesnt have to share citizenship in the convenact and memebership in Christ, till they get older and have enough mind to accept Christ truely by their own choice.

waht's the point of being memebership in Christ when you are infant when you can't pray, worship, and spend time with God?

it is not needed in infant age. they dont meet the requirement anyway.

ThePlaidRanger · 10-06-2002, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seungk5
quote: bible never say baptise only believers. bible just says baptise.

WHAT? ARE YOU JOKING ME? YOU GUYS SAID YOUR SELF UP THERE, PAEDOBAPTIST PEOPLE, YOU GUYS ADMITED THAT IT'S FOR BELIEVERS THAT REQUIREMENT FOR BAPTISM IS THAT PERSON HAS ACCEPTED CHRIST.

Where? We did no such thing.

Quote:

NOW YOUR SAYING BIBLE DOESNT?

Yes. Belief is never said to be a requirement for baptism.

Quote:

LOL GO DIG UP SOME VERSES IN THE FORUM HERE. SOME WHERE AROUND 5 TO 8

Again, the burden of proof is on you. You can go dig them up.

Quote:

IT SAYS PLENTY plenty PLENTY OF VERSES THAT SAYS BAPTISM IS FOR BELIEVERS.

Then they shouldn't be too hard for you to find, should they?

Quote:

if u think bible just says baptise, should go baptising non christians? should i go to school and say when we are swimming " let's baptise guys" dig ur heads in the water and you are saved?

Strawman. The requirements for infant baptism have already been stated.

Quote:

NO THE SAME WAY INFANTS ARE NOT SAVED OR HAS ACCPETED CHRIST SO THEY SHALL NOT BE BAPTISED.

I eagerly await your Scriptural support.

ThePlaidRanger · 10-06-2002, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seungk5
ridley's own: Q What is required of us at Baptism?

A It is required that we renounce Satan, repent of our sins, and
accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Q Why then are infants baptized?

A Infants are baptized so that they can share citizenship in the
Covenant, membership in Christ, and redemption by God.

ridelye's own is FOR infant baptism...... he said him self we have to repent and accept Jesus and Lord and Savior. also many other verses say that.

Remeber that there are at least four different schools of thought on baptism - Catholic/Episcopalian is paedobaptist and affirms baptismal regeneration, Church of Christ is not paedobaptist and affirms baptismal regeneration, Baptists are not paedobaptist and deny baptismal regeneration, and Reformed churches are paedobaptist and deny baptismal regeneration.
Ridley's Own is Episcopalian - the rest of the paedobaptists on this thread are Reformed.

Quote:

infants do not fit all the requirement. not even one....

infants doesnt have to share citizenship in the convenact and memebership in Christ, till they get older and have enough mind to accept Christ truely by their own choice.

waht's the point of being memebership in Christ when you are infant when you can't pray, worship, and spend time with God?

it is not needed in infant age. they dont meet the requirement anyway.

There is a distinct difference between membership in the covenant and salvation - we see the same thing in the Old Testament, where all Jews were circumsised and members of the covenant, but not all were saved.

seungk5 · 10-06-2002, 06:32 PM

you know waht, i am tired of wasting my time in theology. i can do much better things. i dont wanna come back here.

you guys say it over and over lol same thing

all i know is that bible doesnt say it than it's not necessary and infants are not believers, good bye

WooTang · 10-06-2002, 07:30 PM

(Luke)
Now, if you disagree with this (e.g. WooTang), that's one thing, but it's getting old to hear you say over and over again that we're just saying it's okay because the Bible never prohibits it--that is not the paedobaptist belief.

(Wootang)
I have just as many legitimate reasons to believe that it is not necessary as you have to say that there is.

(ThePlaidRanger)
All I see is Baptist propaganda.

(Wootang)
Please don't think that seungk5's ideology is inclusive of all Baptists. And as for this "Baptist propaganda," this view of anti-paedobaptism goes back to Irenaeus, Cyprian, and Tertullian, as early as the year AD185, far back into the antiquity of church history. As a matter of fact, no infant baptism was explicitly recorded in the early church until the 6th century as a result of Tertullian's rejection of it.

As for the baptism of "households" in Acts 11:14; 16:15; 16:31-34; 18:8; and 1 Cor. 1:16, a paedobaptist has just as much reason to believe that this implys infants as I have to believe that it implys the regenerate believers of the household.

The reason that I believe Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc. were wrong in their practice of infant baptism is that, while they had separated from the Catholic church in theology, they were still similar in practice.

WooTang · 10-06-2002, 07:37 PM

Baptist Propaganda-------> I am a Baptist because Jesus' older cousin was one!

ThePlaidRanger · 10-06-2002, 09:57 PM

Baptist Propaganda are statements that have little to no backing in Scripture, but are taught as such by Baptist churches (BTW, I was Baptist until January).

For example:
Wine in Bible times wasn't really very alcoholic.
Baptism is a public declaration of faith.

Bryan · 10-06-2002, 10:03 PM

i don't know if this has been said or not, but here I go:

what about the great commission. Christ says to make discples and baptize them. Wouldn't this require that they be a disciple before they are baptized?