How can Division in the Body be repaired/prevented?

hananiel · 10-03-2002, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blindman

I believe that salvation requires and action both on our part _and_ on God's part. So for me, Calvinists and Arminians are just emphasizing two different aspects of the same thing - God's choice and our choice, both of which are present.

That is to say, the main question in soteriology is "Does God choose us, or do we choose God?" And I personally believe that the answer is "yes."

No its not like that. It cannot be true as some one pointed out that newzealand is both south and not south of australia.

Calvinists believe man has no free-will, but free choice, to choose sin (which I think is no choice) at all.

I am not an arminian, but I believe, in man's free will as far as his own heart is concerned. The sovereign choice of hating a man is mans, the act of allowing a killing is God's. Everything in the world happens by the will of God.

That given an opportunity to choose God, and if God draws him, he can choose God. That God has no say in the perishing of a sinner - he cannot change his heart, but wishes he did. (I think thats what it means when he says "lets make man in our own image", "knowing good and evil like Gods". Also there is no meaning for our love, if that choice wasnt true). But when a sinner turns to Him, he is able to help.

Also God wont draw everyone with his holyspirit but those who will believe,based on that foreknowledge. But everyone will hear the gospel - even the dead.

So yes me and luke believe in totally different things.

**Athanasius** · 10-03-2002, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hananiel
That God has no say in the perishing of a sinner - he cannot change his heart, but wishes he did. (I think thats what it means when he says "lets make man in our own image", "knowing good and evil like Gods". Also there is no meaning for our love, if that choice wasnt true)....

So yes me and luke believe in totally different things.

Yes, Luke believes in a Sovereign Omnipotent Omniscient Creator God...the God of the Bible.

Hananiel believes in a god ruled by his creations... "God has no say in the perishing of a sinner - he cannot change his heart, but wishes he did"

An impotent shadow of deity...

Very Sad.

In fact I'd go to hananiel's statement goes beyond mere heresy...

"God has no say...but wishes he did"...wow...I hope you can see how unbiblical and untrue this is.

hananiel · 10-03-2002, 05:57 PM

"God has no say...but wishes he did"...wow...I can't believe someone could actually believe this.

(Hananiel) I am sorry you cannot see my view, but see it this way:

I dont know your belief about free-will. But if there was no free-will there is no love. Love is choosing that someone or something over another. It indicates a choice. God or your life?

So if God forced himself on you, then you have to believe in a cruel God. God forced sin on you. If you counter that with the original fall was the only free-will we had, then, still God had to be cruel or christs blood can atone for only some.

Infact free will is the only way we can solve the epicurean paradox:

1)God is all-powerful.
2)God is perfectly good.
3)Evil exists.
4)If God exists, then there would be no evil.
5)There is evil.
6)Therefore God does not exist.

You can fit in it man's free-will and explain evil at the very least. Evil happens by children of God gone astray. But not more than what God will allow. If every one in fellowship with God all the time, there would be no evil; I loose my temper on this forum, I give in to satan.
I know who I worship and that not by logic, I KNOW him better than anyone can tell me that he is good and powerful. He drew me with his love and now I choose him over all that I have.
So I did not choose God, He chose me. But when he chose me, I said yes. You can say no!

No its not unbiblical. The problem is the bible is written in everyday language. And paul was trying to teach romans how great the grace of God. and augustine talked a bit about predestination - ithink same as i believe, calvin pushed it some more (it was still ok I think) and then some one came along and invented hyper-calvinism. No freewill group. I think.

Luke · 10-03-2002, 06:10 PM

(hananiel)
I am not an arminian, but I believe, in man's free will as far as his own heart is concerned.

(Luke)
Then you are an Arminian. Say cheese.

(hananiel)
The sovereign choice of hating a man is mans, the act of allowing a killing is God's. Everything in the world happens by the will of God.

Infact free will is the only way we can solve the epicurean paradox:

1)God is all-powerful.
2)God is perfectly good.
3)Evil exists.
4)If God exists, then there would be no evil.
5)There is evil.
6)Therefore God does not exist.

(Luke)
Free will does nothing to solve this paradox if God still must sovereignly choose to allow each evil act.

The correct Christian response is to say that we must adhere to God's definition of ultimate goodness and not ours.

(hananiel)
That given an opportunity to choose God, and if God draws him, he can choose God.

(Luke)
And necessarily will, since all who are drawn are raised up on the last day (John 6:44).

(hananiel)
That God has no say in the perishing of a sinner - he cannot change his heart, but wishes he did.

(Luke)
"I accomplish all I please" (Isaiah 46:10)

(hananiel)
(I think thats what it means when he says "lets make man in our own image", "knowing good and evil like Gods".

(Luke)
No.

(hananiel)
Also there is no meaning for our love, if that choice wasnt true.

(Luke)
Our choice was true. It just wasn't intrinsic.

(hananiel)
But when a sinner turns to Him, he is able to help.

(Luke)
"There are none who seek God." (Romans 3:11)

(hananiel)
Also God wont draw everyone with his holyspirit but those who will believe,based on that foreknowledge.

(Luke)
God's calling is nowhere stated to be based on foreknowledge of our decisions.

(hananiel)
But everyone will hear the gospel - even the dead.

(Luke)
Irrelevant.

So yes me and luke believe in totally different things. [/B][/QUOTE]

**Athanasius** · 10-03-2002, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hananiel
"God has no say...but wishes he did"...wow...I can't believe someone could actually believe this.

(Hananiel) I am sorry you cannot see my view, but see it this way:

I dont know your belief about free-will. But if there was no free-will there is no love. Love is choosing that someone or something over another. It indicates a choice. God or your life?

I wasn't debating "free-will" ... I was bringing up how blasphemous the statement you made in your previous post was. Show me from the Bible where and how God has no say. I'll give you as long as you want!

But I will address your question...
There is "free-will" but it is always subject to God's sovereign will. We are mere creations, he is God. All of our "free-will" decisions lead to more death...because we are completely dead in sin. When God chooses to show His infinite grace and mercy to us...we cannot help but say yes. So, by showing us His perfect grace, it changes our will...

Quote:

So if God forced himself on you, then you have to believe in a cruel God. God forced sin on you. If you counter that with the original fall was the only free-will we had, then, still God had to be cruel or christs blood can atone for only some.

Quite the opposite, God is gracious to choose me for life. And then to reveal His grace to me. A cruel God would leave all of us to "our own free-will" which, because we are dead in sin, would leave us in that state. Our own "free-will" can only bring us death.

Quote:

Infact free will is the only way we can solve the epicurean paradox:

1)God is all-powerful.
2)God is perfectly good.
3)Evil exists.
4)If God exists, then there would be no evil.
5)There is evil.
6)Therefore God does not exist.

You can fit in it man's free-will and explain evil at the very least. Evil happens by children of God gone astray. But not more than what God will allow. If every one in fellowship with God all the time, there would be no evil; I loose my temper on this forum, I give in to satan.

"You can fit in it man's free-will and explain evil at the very least. Evil happens by children of God gone astray. But not more than what God will allow."

So at what point does God become an all-powerful being? When He creates us...or when us, the created give him the right? It'd be best if you were consistent.

"God has no say...but wishes he did"

Quote:

I know who I worship and that not by logic, I KNOW him better than anyone can tell me that he is good and powerful. He drew me with his love and now I choose him over all that I have.
So I did not choose God, He chose me. But when he chose me, I said yes. You can say no!

Back up your claim that "you can say no"...please.

Quote:

No its not unbiblical. The problem is the bible is written in everyday language. And paul was trying to teach romans how great the grace of God. and augustine talked a bit about predestination - ithink same as i believe, calvin pushed it some more (it was still ok I think) and then some one came along and invented hyper-calvinism. No freewill group. I think.

I don't know any "hyper-calvinists" on this board.

peace.

Luke · 10-03-2002, 06:18 PM

(hananiel)
I am sorry you cannot see my view

(Luke)
I do see it, it's just wrong. Your god is too small.

(hananiel)
I dont know your belief about free-will. But if there was no free-will there is no love.

(Luke)
On what basis?

(hananiel)
Love is choosing that someone or something over another. It indicates a choice. God or your life?

(Luke)
Choice does not indicate or require an autonomous will.

(hananiel)
So if God forced himself on you, then you have to believe in a cruel God.

(Luke)
It's so cruel that God chooses to rescue people...

(hananiel)
God forced sin on you. If you counter that with the original fall was the only free-will we had, then, still God had to be cruel or christs blood can atone for only some.

(Luke)
Christ's blood does atone for only some.
And we freely choose sin, God doesn't have to force it on us.

(hananiel)
But not more than what God will allow.

(Luke)
If this amount is > 0, then the paradox remains unsolved.

(hananiel)
I know who I worship and that not by logic, I KNOW him better than anyone can tell me that he is good and powerful. He drew me with his love and now I choose him over all that I have.

(Luke)
So salvation is based in your initial and continued choice....the atonement was incomplete and you ADDED to it?

(hananiel)
So I did not choose God, He chose me. But when he chose me, I said yes. You can say no!

(Luke)
"his deeds are wrought in God" (John 3:21)

(hananiel)
and augustine talked a bit about predestination - ithink same as i believe

(Luke)
Nope. Augustine was a Calvinist (although he predated the title).

(hananiel)
calvin pushed it some more (it was still ok I think) and then some one came along and invented hyper-calvinism. No freewill group. I think.

(Luke)
Your knowledge of church history is zilch.
What I have been espousing on these boards is traditional Calvinism as believed by Luther, Calvin, and Augustine. Hyper-Calvinism is not the denial of free will (Calvinism includes that) but rather the belief that evangelism is unnecessary, which nobody here believes.

Chrysostom · 10-03-2002, 06:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hananiel
[B]"God has no say...but wishes he did"...wow...I can't believe someone could actually believe this.

(Hananiel) I am sorry you cannot see my view, but see it this way:

I dont know your belief about free-will. But if there was no free-will there is no love. Love is choosing that someone or something over another. It indicates a choice. God or your life?

So if God forced himself on you, then you have to believe in a cruel God. God forced sin on you. If you counter that with the original fall was the only free-will we had, then, still God had to be cruel or christs blood can atone for only some.

Infact free will is the only way we can solve the epicurean paradox:

1)God is all-powerful.
2)God is perfectly good.
3)Evil exists.
4)If God exists, then there would be no evil.
5)There is evil.
6)Therefore God does not exist.

(Me) The conclusion (6) is flawed because (4) is a false premise. It's rare that you'll even find someone argue for it -- it's just assumed. However, it's a completely false premise (the Bible itself repudiates such a notion, as it tells us that God is well-pleased to use even the evils of this world for His own glory).

(hananiel) Calvinists believe man has no free-will, but free choice, to choose sin (which I think is no choice) at all.

(Me) God offers us the choice. He says, "Here, believe and be saved, take it or leave it!" It's too bad that we all say "no." The only time in this process He overrides our will is in regenerating us from death to life. What could possibly be wrong with God making a dead man alive again?

hananiel · 10-03-2002, 06:36 PM

(hananiel)
I am not an arminian, but I believe, in man's free will as far as his own heart is concerned.

(Luke)
Then you are an Arminian. Say cheese.

(Hananiel) I believe in the preservation of saints.

(hananiel)
The sovereign choice of hating a man is mans, the act of allowing a killing is God's. Everything in the world happens by the will of God.

Infact free will is the only way we can solve the epicurean paradox:

1)God is all-powerful.
2)God is perfectly good.
3)Evil exists.
4)If God exists, then there would be no evil.
5)There is evil.
6)Therefore God does not exist.

(Luke)
Free will does nothing to solve this paradox if God still must sovereignly choose to allow each evil act.

The correct Christian response is to say that we must adhere to God's definition of ultimate goodness and not ours.

(Hananiel) that is to change the meaning of Goodness. I suppose satan can call himself good by that definition. Given he allows arbitrary acts of kindness ( Calvinists are not cannibals)

(hananiel)
That given an opportunity to choose God, and if God draws him, he can choose God.

(Luke)
And necessarily will, since all who are drawn are raised up on the last day (John 6:44).

(Hananiel)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

DOES NOT imply what you said. There might be ( and will be some ) who wont come after he draws them. But unless he draws them they cannot come.

(hananiel)
That God has no say in the perishing of a sinner - he cannot change his heart, but wishes he did.

(Luke)
"I accomplish all I please" (Isaiah 46:10)

(Hananiel) Not in the heart of a man.
Deuteronomy 30
16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, .....
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,

(hananiel)
(I think thats what it means when he says "lets make man in our own image", "knowing good and evil like Gods".

(Luke)
No.
(Hananiel) Yes

(hananiel)
Also there is no meaning for our love, if that choice wasnt true.

(Luke)
Our choice was true. It just wasn't intrinsic.
(Hananiel) again, can you love a prostitute, who gives pleasure for money? Why do you think God kept comparing israel to a prostitute?

(hananiel)
But when a sinner turns to Him, he is able to help.

(Luke)
"There are none who seek God." (Romans 3:11)

(Hananiel) Yes, by themselves, but "whoever believes" will be saved. You dont address what happens when God seeks the sinner.

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.

Why did he "SEEK" the sinners, geographical coordinates or is he looking them up in a list?

(hananiel)
Also God wont draw everyone with his holyspirit but those who will believe,based on that foreknowledge.

(Luke)
God's calling is nowhere stated to be based on foreknowledge of our decisions.

(Hananiel) I am not talking about calling here.

(hananiel)
But everyone will hear the gospel - even the dead.

(Luke)
Irrelevant.
Hananiel - to what, I was giving my statement of belief. You didnt have the courage to address my argument. I am waiting.... Im sure you cannot win. Your strategy will be to multiply words confuse everybody else. Its crystal clear what the bible says.

Luke · 10-03-2002, 07:05 PM

(hananiel)
I believe in the preservation of saints.

(Luke)
Classification retracted. You're a four-point Arminian.

(Luke)
Free will does nothing to solve this paradox if God still must sovereignly choose to allow each evil act.

The correct Christian response is to say that we must adhere to God's definition of ultimate goodness and not ours.

(hananiel)
that is to change the meaning of Goodness. I suppose satan can call himself good by that definition. Given he allows arbitrary acts of kindness ( Calvinists are not cannibals)

(Luke)
Except that God's standard of goodness is norminative because He is the location of ultimacy, and Satan (or us, for that matter) are not.

IOW, God has the authority to declare what the meaning of goodness is. Satan and we do not.

(hananiel)
That given an opportunity to choose God, and if God draws him, he can choose God.

(Luke)
And necessarily will, since all who are drawn are raised up on the last day (John 6:44).

(hananiel)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

DOES NOT imply what you said. There might be ( and will be some ) who wont come after he draws them. But unless he draws them they cannot come.

(Luke)
It not only implies, but requires it. There is nobody in that equation who is drawn but isn't raised up.

(hananiel)
That God has no say in the perishing of a sinner - he cannot change his heart, but wishes he did.

(Luke)
"I accomplish all I please" (Isaiah 46:10)

(hananiel)
Not in the heart of a man.
Deuteronomy 30
16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, .....
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,

(Luke)
That one's heart turns away from God's command does not require that this was done against God's sovereign will (which is distinct from his moral will).

And Isaiah 46:10 wasn't allowing for exceptions.

(hananiel)
(I think thats what it means when he says "lets make man in our own image", "knowing good and evil like Gods".

(Luke)
No.

(hananiel)
Yes

(Luke)
On the basis of...?

(hananiel)
Also there is no meaning for our love, if that choice wasnt true.

(Luke)
Our choice was true. It just wasn't intrinsic.

(hananiel)
again, can you love a prostitute, who gives pleasure for money? Why do you think God kept comparing israel to a prostitute?

(Luke)
How does that address what I said at all?

(hananiel)
But when a sinner turns to Him, he is able to help.

(Luke)
"There are none who seek God." (Romans 3:11)

(Hananiel) Yes, by themselves, but "whoever believes" will be saved. You dont address what happens when God seeks the sinner.

(Luke)
If nobody seeks God, nobody will intrinsically believe. God must "make us alive" (Ephesians 2:4).

The raising of Lazarus from the dead was not a cooperative effort between Christ and Lazarus. Christ did it alone. Scripture uses the picture of "dead in sins" and being "made alive" in Ephesians 2 for a reason.

(hananiel)
Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.

Why did he "SEEK" the sinners, geographical coordinates or is he looking them up in a list?

(Luke)
What about the "save" part? Note that Christ saves by Himself....no cooperative effort involved.

(hananiel)
Also God wont draw everyone with his holyspirit but those who will believe,based on that foreknowledge.

(Luke)
God's calling is nowhere stated to be based on foreknowledge of our decisions.

(hananiel)
I am not talking about calling here.

(Luke)
Same concept.

(hananiel)
You didnt have the courage to address my argument.

(Luke)
What is that supposed to mean? What argument have I ignored?

(hananiel)
Its crystal clear what the bible says.

(Luke)
Yes. Calvinism.

**Athanasius** · 10-03-2002, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hananiel
(hananiel)
I am not an arminian, but I believe, in man's free will as far as his own heart is concerned.

(Luke)
Then you are an Arminian. Say cheese.

(Hananiel) I believe in the preservation of saints.

How does this work? Isn't it a violation of your free will for Him to keep you saved?

Your inconsistency gets the best of you again...when does your god become Sovereign in your gospel? Because if he isn't Sovereign to begin with, how does that change occur?

Acquinas · 10-03-2002, 10:10 PM

returning to the original purpose of this post:

I believe that the conflict between arminians and calvinists shouldn't divide the church into factions. The scriptures show that division among believers isn't usually a good thing.

Matthew 12:25 "Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, 'Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand;' "

Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless."

1 Corinthians 1:10 "I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment."

However, there are some instances where division is appriopriate. Paul explains these:

1 Corinthians 11:18-19 "For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."

We must expel the immoral brothers:

1 Corinthians 5:11 "But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber--not even to eat with such a one."

Deuteronomy 19:19 "you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you." (see also Deuteronomy 17:7, 21:21, 22:21,24, 24:27)

This is why Jesus said in Luke 12, "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division."

All we have to do is decide whether the division between arminians and calvinists constitutes a sin. That is, is the group in error sinning? If they are, then we might have a case for the numerous denominations that exist today. However, I think that the distinction between arminian and calvinist is unimportant. Either way, we are still commanded to "go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). We still are to love our neighbor as ourselves, love our God with all our heart mind and soul, and follow the Lord's commandments. Whether it is God acting through us or our own actions, we still must do the same things. Our responsibilities do not change. I believe that predestination is like the trinity. I don't understand how God can be three persons in one entity, but the Bible supports it, so I believe it. Consequently, predestination and free will both have some support in the Bible, thus I believe that they can co-exist. Our obligation to be unified in evangelism supercedes our theological disputes. Thus, we should reunite.

Bryan · 10-03-2002, 10:17 PM

Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless."

This isn't a quarrel about the law, it is an ongoing debate about the very nature of Salvation and God.

[Acquinas]
Consequently, predestination and free will both have some support in the Bible, thus I believe that they can co-exist.

[Bryan]
And there are a lot of people on here who will disagree with that statement.

WooTang · 10-03-2002, 11:00 PM

(hananiel)
Its crystal clear what the bible says.

(Luke)
Yes. Calvinism.

(Wootang)
AMEN!
____________________________________________________
(Bryan)
This isn't a quarrel about the law, it is an ongoing debate about the very nature of Salvation and God

(Wootang)
AMEN!
____________________________________________________
(Acquinas)
However, I think that the distinction between arminian and calvinist is unimportant...predestination and free will both have some support in the Bible, thus I believe that they can co-exist.

(Wootang)
The distinction is that they are contradictory. They each have arguments that refute the other point-for-point. The only way that Calvinism/Arminianism and predestination/free will could exist as you say is if God were either lying by falsely revealing Himself, or He is inherently conflicting in character. How can this be unimportant? What a perfect example of 2 Timothy 4:3-4!

hananiel · 10-03-2002, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob_The_Veggie
How does this work? Isn't it a violation of your free will for Him to keep you saved?

Your inconsistency gets the best of you again...when does your god become Sovereign in your gospel? Because if he isn't Sovereign to begin with, how does that change occur?

It would be a violation if I became sinfree. But the when you are born again, you having been sanctified, are available for the Spirit of God to dwell in you and have fellowship with you. That was the whole work of the cross. To allow men to come into the presense of a righteous God. The Holy Spirit in you corrects you when you go wrong, and NO ONE who has tasted of the love of God can go back, recant. That's why there are people who die for their faith.

hananiel · 10-03-2002, 11:40 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luke
[B](Luke)
Classification retracted. You're a four-point Arminian.
(Hananiel) henceforth, I will let people know whose son I am.

(Luke)
Except that God's standard of goodness is norminative because He is the location of ultimacy, and Satan (or us, for that matter) are not.
(Hananiel) How will you know whats NORMATIVE if you read scripture wrong?

(hananiel)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

DOES NOT imply what you said.
(Luke)
It not only implies, but requires it. There is nobody in that equation who is drawn but isn't raised up.

(Hananiel) lets try again.
There are red apples, green apples and oranges.

A guy says No fruit thats not an apple will be taken.
we agree oranges dont make it.

Lets see why both red and green apples, wont make it.

the guy comes and picks all red apples.

Was he lying?

(Luke)
That one's heart turns away from God's command does not require that this was done against God's sovereign will (which is distinct from his moral will).
And Isaiah 46:10 wasn't allowing for exceptions.

Neither was John 3:16. We know which is the key verse.

(hananiel)
again, can you love a prostitute, who gives pleasure for money? Why do you think God kept comparing israel to a prostitute?
(Luke)
How does that address what I said at all?
(Hananiel) Tried to explain the intrinsic meaning of LOVE. you cannot love robots. You can love even people, when they of all the other people they can love, love you. You cannot buy it or decree it.

(Hananiel) Yes, by themselves, but "whoever believes" will be saved. You dont address what happens when God seeks the sinner.

(Luke)
If nobody seeks God, nobody will intrinsically believe. God must "make us alive" (Ephesians 2:4).
The raising of Lazarus from the dead was not a cooperative effort between Christ and Lazarus. Christ did it alone.

Scripture uses the picture of "dead in sins" and being "made alive" in Ephesians 2 for a reason.

(Hananiel) Christ died for our sins when we were dead in our sins. Salvation is very very different from physical death. Of course all scripture is there for contorting it.

(Luke)
What about the "save" part? Note that Christ saves by Himself....no cooperative effort involved.

(Hananiel) you answer seek, Ill answer save.

(Luke)
God's calling is nowhere stated to be based on foreknowledge of our decisions.
(Luke)
(Hananiel) The physical man, cannot understand the things of God.

(Luke)
What is that supposed to mean? What argument have I ignored?

(Hananiel) Dearest Luke. If you think I dont understand your strategy. When people make a strong scriptural case against your tenets, you ignore them or close the thread. But when people make statements of belief, without scriptural support, you attack those points that you know can best be supported by contorting scripture, and use them. If you look back up in this post, I have made a pretty sturdy case and you will address it, if you support the truth.

I am doing this so that no one who is wavering will be lost. God can use the truth submitted in an honest effort. I cannot hope to convince you or even win the argument, but will give my best effort. So here I am making a "Wild allegation" of contorting scripture where I have a strong case, that you wont argue.