[Benny Hicks]

For those of you that haven't heard, vocation of the pledge of allegiance is now illegal. Alright, now America is seeing where it's headed as it's future is being determined by secular humanists. I definitely saw this one coming, I still don't know what to say about it. I saw a sign that was a play on the whole patriotic tune and read "America Bless God". Something's gotta change, America is being ruled by humanists and seems like it's going down the tubes.

Ben

[frostydv]

Liberal Judges will be over turned

[Benny Hicks]

The problem is that precedents are being set and amendments being interpreted in ways that are going to be very, very difficult to reverse. When will this country stop? I personally do not believe it will. I pray that America will return to it's godly heritage, but I believe this country is entrenching itself in the slough of despond. May God directly intervene in our country. Is it the federal judges that serve until they die? I need to brush up on my legal systems.

Ben

[SoccerAaron]

They are changing everything our forefathers worked so hard to build and thats wrong.
This country's first settlers came here to worship god now our country is try to take that away.

[passinthru]

and this would be what... the third thread on this today?

[Benny Hicks]

My bad, the is really the only forum that I ever look at, and I figured this could stimulate some interesting discussion on the relationship between theology and law. Go ahead and delete this thread if you feel it necessary, I just figured there should be one in the theology forum.

Ben

[SnapCase]

Originally posted by passinthru
and this would be what... the third thread on this today?

Well, to us Americans this is extremely important.

[passinthru]

just a comment..i understand that it is important for you guys. It's just that this is the third thread...it would be nice to have it all on one. It does tend to be rather confusing to try to remeber who posted what and where on the same issue. (and the threads titles are very similar)

[Beanpole]

Although I disagree with the ruling, I must point out that the original pledge of allegiance did not include the words "under God". That was added later (though I don't know when or by whom). This court ruling is just reversing that, and I can see nothing politcally wrong with it. Furthermore, a lot of Christians are screaming that it makes it seem like we are no longer a Christian nation, that it goes against the Christian founding of our forefathers. I hate to bust your bubble, but the founding fathers were not true Christians (I'm not making a judgement on the condition of their souls, just saying that they're theology was very off). Virtually all founding fathers were Masons, who believed in the "Watchmaker" theorum. In many letters, they renounced Christianity. Jefferson even had his own Bible in which he crossed out everything he didn't believe, which included everything supernatural. I'm sorry I have no direct evidence, I had some before, but have since lost it. You'll just have to take my word for it (yeah, like that will work ). Anyway, just want you guys to realize that this ruling isn't the end of the world, or a signal of the second coming, simply a ruling in the view of political correctness.

P.S. If I understand it right, this ruling was made by a federal appelet court, which only means that the case can be appealed to the supreme court, and not that it is the "law."

[Mr. Kevin Ash]

"There are lies being told about the Bible and about America. By people who should know better, and probably do. They pose as the Messiah's evangelists on programs subsidized with tax exemption and protected by the same First Amendment they frequently denounce. They clothe a blatantly political agenda in pious rhetoric and peddle it as gospel.

"They preach that America was founded by right-wing Christians, who espoused the same theology as they do. Who were these people? How about John Adams, Daniel Webster, or Thomas Jefferson? Won't work. They were Unitarians. What of Benjamin Franklin? A deist. Thomas Payne? A self-avowed atheist. There were no right wing pietists in the motley crew that shaped America's earlieset documents. They weren't trying to establish a Christian nation. Quite the opposite. They were fleeing from entanglement in anyone's religion, for they had seen where governments based on religion led. They had seen the beggary, the bloodletting inhumanity of theocracies, and wanted no part of it. Church was never to be state. State was never to be church.

"Shame on those fat-cat false prophets spewing their toxic rhetoric, trying to control every reading of the American life with a selective reading of the Bible. That's blasphemy. It's idolatry. The Bible is a book about who God is, not a political handbook. And America was not founded on legislated morality"
---Will D. Campbell

[Fuzz]

Look on the bright side ya'll! President Bush said the ruling was "rediculous" and Senate majority Leader Tom Daschale(i'll let you fix the spelling luke ) said it was "nuts". That's a good thing And from my understanding it's only outlawed in Schools? Nothing more than that, i'm pretty sure that if say, President Bush quoted from it he wouldn't be throw in prison fer it. -Adam

[Chrysostom]

Kevin -
I agree that many of the framers of important early American documents were not right-wing Christians. However, it is important to note that they can be fully contrasted to the humanistic credo of the French Revolution. The French Revolution was a failed mockery of freedom and morality, while the American Revolution did an acceptable (though admittedly not impeccable) job. Why is that? Well, it is because the French tried to make themselves God, while the Americans did not.

Many of the key political writers in America were not right-wing Christians, agreed. However, the population as a whole had a tendency towards conservatism. Additionally, the majority of those main political leaders who were not Christians had beliefs spawned in Christianity (deism and Unitarianism) and almost all of them were conservative in the sense that we today associate with the term.

[Chrysostom]

[gruveguy] For those of you that haven't heard, vocation of the pledge of allegiance is now illegal. Alright, now America is seeing where it's headed as it's future is being determined by secular humanists. I definitely saw this one coming, I still don't know what to say about it. I saw a sign that was a play on the whole patriotic tune and read "America Bless God". Something's gotta change, America is being ruled by humanists and seems like it's going down the tubes.

[Me] This is the way of sinful man, and it is the way that we will travel as long as the platform of the unregenerate is considered "neutral ground."

Here's a tough nut to crack: The fundamental problem is that we have bad theology in churches.

[Travis]

I pretty much agree with the decision. I wouldn't want an atheist majority to try to make me deny God in a pledge to our nation and I wouldn't want a Muslim majority to try to make me say "under Allah." We happen to have a "Christian" majority, and I don't think we should do this to people of other faiths. I know that our God is the true God, and all, but to them this is basically the same thing. We can't force them to say "under God," and why would we? What does it do for them besides just piss them off and spawn bitterness towards Christians? It was certainly unconstitutional IMHO.

[Chrysostom]

The problem though, Travis, is that we're acting like atheism/agnosticism is the NEUTRAL ground on which to stand.

If they're going to say that they're not siding against the Christians, then I contend that they will be forced to disallow the teaching of evolution or the Big Bang in schools. However, they won't do it because they're deluded in secular humanism