[switchfoot974]

I have a friend who is Calvinist, and some of their beliefs, seem doctrinely wrong. I was curious as to whether anyone had feelings on it. The one I most have a problem with is Limited Attonement, that Christ died only for the elect. He gave bible verses to back himself up...but none of them were dead on for what he said, they honestly didn't fit at all....so if anyone would like to add to this discussion thanks...

A good page on why Calvinisim is off is www.faithcontenders.com

[Amber]

From what I remember of history class, Calvanism teaches that some people have been pre-chosen to go to Heaven and nobody else has any hope of salvation. I don't agree with this at all. Jesus died for and loves EVERYONE, not just a special elect group. It is kind of surprising to me that anyone still follows this doctrine, because how do they know that they are really included in the "Heaven-bound" group? Anyways, that's my opinion

[Peanutnate]

It shouldn't be surprising that people still hold to the teachings of the Calvinistic view of salvation. The three most prolific fathers of the Protestant Reformation, which the rest of the denomonations of Christianity come from aside from Catholicism, were all Calvinists so to speak. These three guys were Martin Luther, who has been quoted as saying, "Free Will is only a figment of the Imagination." And also Huldrych Zwingli and John Calvin who were both very closely related doctrinely.

But, aside from those guys one should seek out their own belief on the matter. Don't believe on one side or the other simply because that is what you have been taught your whole life. Search for it yourself. I would suggest getting reading material from both sides of the argument. But most importantly test what they say against Scripture. It would also be beneficial to go into this study with no presuppositions about the subject.

At first glance it may seem unfair that God would choose some and not others; but one must also keep in mind that God was not forced to redeem anyone in the first place. He would have been completely just in letting all of humanity burn in Hell. So Him choosing some is still an act of His mercy and grace.

Sf974 gave you a page explaining why Calvinism is wrong.

I will give you one explaining why it is correct. Check out both and then decide for yourself. http://www.desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/DoctrinesGrace/tulip.htm

It's a little long, but does a great job of explaining Calvinism in a nutshell.

[switchfoot974]

I agree that God already knows who will be saved, its in the Lambs Book of Life, but my point is that if some are going to be saved no matter what....then why try? Why witness? Why do anything, wouldn't that make faith pointless, since you are going to be saved...maybe you are since we don't know. Calvinism relies less on giving up yourself then mainstream theology. It is hard to understand why it makes sense. My friend quoted John 3:16 and said the "World" represented the elect...what?! It is all inference. I don't believe the other way just because I was raised that way, but it seems more doctrinely correct. Besides if God was to not allow people in, and not give them a chance(which is what Limited Attonement does) then wouldn't that take away from his perfect love? Everyone has a chance to come to him, some choose no, but the blood of Christ covered all sins, not just the sins of the elect. Christ never said, this is just for the elect, I believe he made it clear he died for all men....

[Peanutnate]

The question of "why witness?" is one which is often thrown in my face as Calvinist. I understand the logic behind it as well. It states clearly in:

Romans 10:14, "How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?"

In this passage you see the sequence of evangelism unto belief in God. A preacher must be sent so that lost souls can "hear" and only after hearing does believing become an option.

So we see the necessity of Evangelism. I am sure you are still asking that since they are predestined that they will be saved anyway. But God is not going to predestine an end and not predestine a means. God doesn't just sit back and hope that man will evangelize. God works through man. It was God's pleasure to share the joy of bringing someone to salvation with humanity. So God was gracious enough to ordain things the way He has for our joy.

Also, being a lazy bum and just sitting around waiting for God to do His thing is open rebellion to God. I am sure you see the senseless argument in saying that Calvinism makes mission efforts almost pointless since God will save His elect anyway. I agree that He will save His elect, but want to be a part of that plan as much as I possibly can.

So we witness because God commanded it, it is God's means to bringing salvation, and it is our joy to do so.

Also, faith is not pointless. God chose to save people by faith because faith was something mankind could not generate by themselves; or apart from God. God gives faith as a free gift in order that man could not save himself and must turn to God. Faith is also something that you cannot earn by anything inside of yourself. God gives it freely of His grace inspired by love.

This is what I say about knowing who is saved and who isn't. God knows all of whom He has chosen. The only person we can judge on this matter is ourselves. Do we have saving faith? As far as anyone else is concerned we can only guess, although I am sure we can come to a conclusion that some people and some people aren't with accuracy.....but there are some who are really good actors. God will save those who have faith shown through obedience to Him.

I would suggest reading the whole of the Calvinism of Doctrine together as opposed to trying to disprove one facet without considering the whole. God will allow all into the Kingdom of Heaven who are willing to submit their lives to Him. The problem is that no one is willing apart from God's grace. This is total depravity, stating that mankind has fallen so far away from God that they do not have the ability to submit to Him. That is what Paul meant when he said we were "dead in our tresspasses" and "slaves to sin"

Sorry, I am out of time and have an obligation to be somewhere pretty soon. I will continue this later. I suggest you at least read the part about Total Depravity on the website I sent you. It will do a better job of explaining it than I will.

I will try to answer your perfect love question and also check out the forum on whether or not "everyone has a chance to come to Him" Not everyone has a chance. but we can discuss that there.

One last thing, you state that Christ died for all sins for all of humanity. Then I ask you this, why isn't all of humanity saved?
You cannot say, "because they did not believe" because isn't disbelief one of the sins Christ died for? If he didn't die for that sin, then all of humanity is sent to Hell because we have all been in disbelief at some point in our lives.

Once again, sorry this isn't finished. It is great discussing with you.

[Gus]

I think it's kind of a conundrum, maybe something we may never know about God:

If God knows everything (which He does) then He knows who will accept Him and who won't. If God knows that, then why should He waste His time on people that will never accept him? That would be inefficient, right? That's the conundrum.

I think God for all of His resouircefulness in making the world and everything, is a very inefficient God, in a good way! He could have just given up on the human race in the first place after sin came in, or He could have taken away our right to choice. But he didn't. He wanted us to choose, and He would do anything for as many people to come to Him as possible. His love is extravagent!

I don't know how that fits in with anything, but that's my perspective.

[Peanutnate]

First off, I believe that our conception of a "perfect" anything is going to be somewhat inefficient when compared to the understanding of the perfectness of God. There are simply many things about God that, as humans, we will never understand with our finite mind. We definitely cannot compare God's love to human standards of love. For us we are to consider others as more important than ourselves, or to love our brother more than ourselves. But for God to love anything more than Himself would be idolatry. So God is upmost in his own affections. So God is driven to glorify Himself above all other things. God's perfect love is not compromised in Limited Atonement. But perfect love accomplishes exactly what it set out to do, which was to save His children. I am not saying that the non-elect do not benefit from the cross, because they do. By the grace at the cross the wicked of the world are allowed to continue their life on earth, each breath is a gift from God. Limited Atonement states that the sacrifice on the cross was sufficient for the entire human race, but effecient only to the elect.

answer me a question sf974. are you open minded to calvinism or have you already decided that it is incorrect? It seems at least that you were searching for the truth at the beginning. I was just wondering. Thanks.

[apocalypse77]

Hmm...I can't help but think that the answer lies somewhere inbetween Calvinism and the opposite extreme (being Arianism). Look at other doctines...where does salvation come from?

Phillipians 2:12-13
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

Faith or works?

Romans 1:17
"'...The just shall live by faith.'"

James 2:17-18
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, 'You have faith, and I have works.' Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by works."

So, did God choose us before all time, or did we choose God? I say that it is both.

Romans 8:29-30
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethern. Moreover who He predestined, these he also called; whom He called, these He justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

The word "foreknew" here (Gr. PROEGNW, Aorist Active Indicative) is defined by Strong's as meaning both "To know ahead of time" and "to predestine". There's a dual meaning of the word, where he knew us ahead of time and he also chose us. There's an image both of him choosing us and us choosing him, a sort of mutual selection.

By the way, there's a beautiful image presented here that I just wanted to share. In vs. 30, the Greek word is "EKALESEN", meaning "he called". This is a past tense verb, but it is also an Aorist verb, which means that it denotes an action that took place at one time in the past. When I read this, I got a beautiful image of God's call extending from the beginning throught time to all his children. It's really wonderful, if you think on it a little.

Also, to hit Limited Atonement in a slightly different way. If Jesus died on the cross for all men's sins, why are some going to hell?

(Just a note, I am not Calvinist, but I think Reformed Theology hits the nail on the head more often than any other system.)

An added note about Luther. I do not believe that he was a Hyper-Calvinist, which is a group that believes that free will does not exist at all. The statement (which I have not heard before) that "free will is an illusion" may not support that view either. I would need to see the context of the statement. He may be saying that free will is illusory because it makes people think that they're in control. They have choices over thier decisions, but God has full soverignty.

[Peanutnate]

a77,

I definitely see your thought process leading you in the right direction. I affirm that the just shall live by faith. And this faith cannot be a dead faith, which is actually no faith at all. Faith must be active. Phillipians 2:12-13 shows us how. Paul states that it is actually God who wills and does as He pleases through the believer's faith. So we actually see how faith is evident in other's lives. True faith shows itself.

I agree that God chose us and we chose God. Us choosing God temporally is evidence of God choosing us before the creation of the world.

I simply love Romans 8:29-30. To make a quick statement on this, "to know ahead of time" is one of the meanings. But what does God say he knows ahead of time in this passage. He states He knows "those." So this means that God knew people, not necessarily whether or not they would choose Him as some people state, but that God actually knew THEM.

I would like to also second the question of why some people are still going to hell if Christ died for all sins of all mankind.

As far as the Luther thing goes, it was in a book that I no longer have in my possession anymore. He was not a hyper calvinist, and neither was Calvin, and neither am I. To make this more clear, Free Will is not completely denied, but we see it as defined improperly. But, since during the reformation, free will was used from the arminian sense and not the calvinist sense, the calvinists dropped the idea of free will altogether. I hope that made sense.

[switchfoot974]

I was open-minded at first, but the more I listened the more I saw how off it was...I didn't compare any perfection in us, there is none. I was merely saying that for God to say sorry you don't have a chance to some people goes against his perfect love. Everyone will have a chance to believe, everyone....none will be denied the chance to know Christ, some will deny him though....

[trhoke]

We all live according to our highest pleasure. But for those who are dead in their sins, their highest pleasure is in sin. They freely choose to live in sin and can justly be condemned for that sin. For us to be saved God must reach down and replace are old nature so that our highest pleasure is in Him rather in sin. Since no man seeks God, God chose some to be saved to make alive in Christ. Eph 1:3-6 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved."
Also Eph. 2:4-10, "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that now of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
God changes our hearts so that we can have faith in Him, we still have freewill but now through the work of God by making us alive we can delight in Him instead of sin.

I've posted this before but a good question to ask is this. Why am I saved and not the guy next door? Am I more righteous? More intelligent? More reasonable? My point is that I am none of those things, yet I have put my trust in Christ and he hasn't. Even my friends who have heard the gospel havn't. Why am I saved and not them?
In Christ,
Tim

[Strat_dude]

Does Calvinism believe in complete predestination or just complete predestination when it comes to salvation?

Thanks.
Strat_dude

[HolyTongue]

Peanutnate
correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing that you are a 4 point Calvinist??
that is probably the closest to where I fall maybe more like 3 1/2? I'm not really sure....anyway the one thing that I can't fallow in Calvinism is the God pre selecting people? I don't really see how that is possible? I don't really understand how god can pre-anything....God doesn't have time like we have, so how can he do something that is time related, I do believe that God knows who will accept Christ and who will deny him.
I do find it kind of funny that John Calvin would not be a 5 point Calvinist (which would be a "pure Calvinist") he would fall more a long the lines of a 4 point.
if your not sure what the 5 points of calvanism are take a look here it's a little dry but gets right to the point (okay it's REALLY dry) http://www.gty.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm
I would guess that everyone here is at least a 1 point calvanist....if your not than what are you

[kyxbigal77]

Switchfoot974,
You are working more out of a philosophical idea of God rather than that of what is shown in the Bible.

You are saying that every one deserves an opportunity to chose Christ. You even go so far as to Claim that it goes against part of His character to not give all people an opportunity. This is a normal mentality for us Americans who are used to our rights, but GOD OWES YOU NOTHING MORE THAN AN ETERNITY IN HELL.

In fact His holy, righteous and just character demands that you pay for the sin which you committed. God is glorified and His righteousness is vidicated when a sinner recieves the costs he has earned with his sinful works against the glory of a perfect and almighty GOD.

I don't believe that God's perfect love is displayed in an opportunity for all men like you describe. I believe it lies somewhere in the fact that God has any compassion and patience to even allow a sinner such as me to live a moment outside of the hell I deserve. This amazing mercy is in itself love, and to go beyond the realm of mercy to that of grace where by through Christ, God takes me and cleanses me and makes me able to enjoy Him for all eternity!!!!!

It boggles my mind to think of such love! And it is more perfect in that it was in no way warrented by my actions or by my existence, and even more that it is not in the least deserved....And this is love, thatwhile we were yet sinners Christ died for us. And this is love not that we loved God, but that He loved us and gave up His son for us. It is easy to love someone who loves you. But a perfect love can love even those that in their natural state are hostile toward you, as we are to God.

I know that this in NO WAY covers or truly expresses all of what GOd's perfect love is. It's just a few of my perceptions of this love.

I believe that it so breaks the heart of God to send His creation under His wrath, but I don't believe it breaks His heart more than to see His creation, that which would not be aside from Him, in rebellion against Him. And though it breaks His heart and He takes no pleasure in the utter and unending destruction of those He loves. He will find pleasure in the vindication of His righteousness and the showing of the Glory of His ultimate worth.

God can have love for those whom His Righteousness condemns, however, in Hell he will no longer have compassion on them though they cry out for mercy.

[switchfoot974]

Thanks for apologetics 101. Yes I understand that we are but "spiders held over the fire by his hands" Jonathon Edwards. That it is his love and mercy that gives us each breath. But I also know it breaks his heart to see people die and go to Hell, even when they deserve. We are his creation, we were created to glorify him, and to spend time with him, he does not like to see us in seperation even though we deserve it. How could God say(for example) "Sorry little Timmy you have no chance to go to Heaven?" How does this show his love? IT shows wrath and unjustness(if that is a word) God desires all to be with him, but He know people will reject. He also knows who will be save, Lambs Book of Life....but where bibically does it show God being unjust and unfair to his creation?