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Unread 08-15-2021, 05:23 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe View Post
Let me ask a followup question...

if

a) Not listening to certain christian music because of artists wrong beliefs

would that also require to

b) Not listen to any secular music, because of artists wrong beliefs

Just curious if the same standard goes for both. I can see a case for it and a case against it.

Personally I look at the song and the text, not really the artist. That being said, I tend to stop actively following some artists that I feel uncomfortable with certain theological standpoints and beliefs. But I don't make it a thing to investigate all artists I listen to and some I disagree with I still listen to (when it comes to Christian music). Some probably comes from my awareness that I am not very knowledgeable in many theological issues. I read my bible, but when it comes to original texts and some deeper stuff I am lost, so this makes it harder for me to say with certainty that I am right and they are wrong. I don't know if this makes sense. That is why I focus mostly on the song.

On the other hand I rarely listen to secular music. That makes it easier as I don't need to figure out if the text is something I can support and all that. I just stay away and save myself the work...
If the lyrics are promoting "wrong" beliefs then I would say yes. Even with the groups I question (and I won't name them here) I look at each song individually. The older I get, the less secular music I listen to. I'm also finding that the less I listen to it, the less I want to hear it. That's just me though.

The truth is that it is hard to be 100% consistent.

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Unread 08-15-2021, 05:27 AM   #17
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That was my position in high school. I only listened to CCM. Now I hardly ever listen to Christian/Worship music, mostly because the genre has changed vastly in 30+ years and I'm just not interested. But that could be said about most music for me. Translation: I'm old.

But I would also make a distinction between
a) songs that the congregation sings during worship
b) songs that may be presented to the congregation as part of the service theme
c) songs that people listen to outside of the corporate worship gathering

I think all three have their place. That also means I believe a lot of songs we expect the congregation to sing are not appropriate for the corporate gathering. My opinion, of course; your mileage may vary.
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I agree with you, which is also why I hate the idea of songs like Oceans being used in corporate worship.
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Indeed. The leader at my church is stuck on those type of songs.
I don't listen to a lot of newer CCM because I just don't like it.

I would also agree that there are different kinds of Christian songs. Paul (in Colossians) tells us to sing "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" to one another. We sing from a hymnal that is over 50 years old. In my opinion there are songs in it which are not appropriate for corporate worship. In The Garden is a beautiful song and I love it but it isn't worship.
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Unread 08-15-2021, 11:48 AM   #18
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I don't know. In the Garden stirs up the spirit with feelings of love, admiration, and longing for a closer walk with the Lord our God. Seems very much to be worship. But to each their own.
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Unread 08-15-2021, 11:56 AM   #19
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I don't know. In the Garden stirs up the spirit with feelings of love, admiration, and longing for a closer walk with the Lord our God. Seems very much to be worship. But to each their own.
It's a spiritual song. It's an emotional song. However, it has no real theological substance.
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Unread 08-15-2021, 12:13 PM   #20
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Yes, but you don't need to learn something in order for it to be worship. Praising God deeply with your spirit is the best worship. I feel that song assists in that extremely well.
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Unread 08-15-2021, 06:21 PM   #21
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Yes, but you don't need to learn something in order for it to be worship. Praising God deeply with your spirit is the best worship. I feel that song assists in that extremely well.
While you don't need to learn anything I believe that true worship is focused on God and His attributes. Worship should be centered on Jesus and who he is. That's just my opinion. We sing that song in church from time to time even though I would not pick it if it was left up to me.
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Unread 08-15-2021, 06:25 PM   #22
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THIS article addresses some of what I'm trying to say.
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Unread 08-16-2021, 04:59 PM   #23
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I will give it some thought. My first thought was that if your worship isn't personal, is it really worship?

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I do agree that the song must mean something to you personally in order to get something out of it. But I don't understand the distinction that he makes between personal and corporate worship. In order for it to be spiritual doesn't it have to be personal?

"If you have a group of Christians who think about the texts and can actively translate those lyrics into their own heart痴 worship of God, then everything is fine. But I have had to explain all three of those songs to individuals in my church (namely the object-jumping), and I have come away with the same worry: 努hat was going through your mind while you were singing that song after I had told you we were using it to worship God?."

I agree with that part completely. But I think that everyone needs to be there in order to worship properly. Maybe that is the point being made. That the songs actively speaking to God is easier to translate into our "own heart's worship"?
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Unread 08-16-2021, 08:40 PM   #24
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I will give it some thought. My first thought was that if your worship isn't personal, is it really worship?
Probably. That's a very American, Evangelical response. And that's okay. I'm not going to disrespect your opinion.

There are several elements of the corporate worship gathering. Unless you personally engage or benefit from them, does that mean that "worship" didn't happen in the gathering? If the sermon didn't "speak" to you. You didn't place anything in the offering plate. A prayer was made that you didn't understand of relate to.

I think the article attempted to differentiate between personal and corporate worship. I believe, that is, my opinion, is that there is such a thing as corporate worship that isn't personal at all. It's about the body, even if an individual doesn't feel like being there.

I appreciate your contribution to this discussion. Please continue to interact, even when it means refuting my ideas.
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Unread 08-17-2021, 09:55 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by tlj009 View Post
I will give it some thought. My first thought was that if your worship isn't personal, is it really worship?
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Probably. That's a very American, Evangelical response. And that's okay. I'm not going to disrespect your opinion.

There are several elements of the corporate worship gathering. Unless you personally engage or benefit from them, does that mean that "worship" didn't happen in the gathering? If the sermon didn't "speak" to you. You didn't place anything in the offering plate. A prayer was made that you didn't understand of relate to.

I think the article attempted to differentiate between personal and corporate worship. I believe, that is, my opinion, is that there is such a thing as corporate worship that isn't personal at all. It's about the body, even if an individual doesn't feel like being there.

I appreciate your contribution to this discussion. Please continue to interact, even when it means refuting my ideas.
I think Tony's response is much more coherent than what I am about to write.



"Worship" (as I understand it) is all about correctly recognizing God for who He is. That is why I believe the theology behind the songs we sing is important. While I recognize that there is often a personal and emotional response on our part it is more about who God is than how we feel. The music (sans lyrics) can be enough to stir up emotion and is often used (in my opinion) to manipulate those feelings in people.

Just my thoughts.
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Unread 08-17-2021, 01:07 PM   #26
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Probably. That's a very American, Evangelical response. And that's okay. I'm not going to disrespect your opinion.

There are several elements of the corporate worship gathering. Unless you personally engage or benefit from them, does that mean that "worship" didn't happen in the gathering? If the sermon didn't "speak" to you. You didn't place anything in the offering plate. A prayer was made that you didn't understand of relate to.

I think the article attempted to differentiate between personal and corporate worship. I believe, that is, my opinion, is that there is such a thing as corporate worship that isn't personal at all. It's about the body, even if an individual doesn't feel like being there.

I appreciate your contribution to this discussion. Please continue to interact, even when it means refuting my ideas.
But in each of those examples, doesn't it mean that you didn't participate in the worship? If you don't understand the prayer or sermon, if you put nothing in the offering plate, worship may be happening in the same building but your only contribution is proximity to it. I don't know. I will try to find time to dwell on it more.
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"Worship" (as I understand it) is all about correctly recognizing God for who He is. That is why I believe the theology behind the songs we sing is important. While I recognize that there is often a personal and emotional response on our part it is more about who God is than how we feel. The music (sans lyrics) can be enough to stir up emotion and is often used (in my opinion) to manipulate those feelings in people
.
I agree. I have been in congregations before that focus on emotion more than substance. The result and danger seems to be that people are baptized but don't really know what they are baptized into. So I do agree with you about the lyrics in that respect. But if the lyrics do mean something spiritual to you and you can sing them to God from deep within yourself, does it matter if the words are actively being spoken to God? I'll fly away for example. It is a celebration of God's power and faithfulness but the words aren't directly to God. I am having a hard time understanding why it doesn't count as worship.
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Unread 08-17-2021, 03:45 PM   #27
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But in each of those examples, doesn't it mean that you didn't participate in the worship? If you don't understand the prayer or sermon, if you put nothing in the offering plate, worship may be happening in the same building but your only contribution is proximity to it. I don't know. I will try to find time to dwell on it more.
I appreciate that, and I don't intend to harp on it. But I will say this. There have been many times that the only reason I went to worship was out of obligation. In full confession, this happened even when I was one of the leaders on the platform.

Did I personally worship? Not really. But corporate worship took place, and I believe we put too much onus on leadership to ensure that everyone personally worshiped.

And yes, some of the songs we love to sing have less significance than others. My preference is to not sing those songs during the corporate worship time, or least not make them the main portion of the music we use. I prefer to relegate those songs to other gatherings, however.

But thanks, again, for causing me to review my thoughts about this.
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Unread 08-17-2021, 05:00 PM   #28
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I appreciate that, and I don't intend to harp on it. But I will say this. There have been many times that the only reason I went to worship was out of obligation. In full confession, this happened even when I was one of the leaders on the platform.

Did I personally worship? Not really. But corporate worship took place, and I believe we put too much onus on leadership to ensure that everyone personally worshiped.

And yes, some of the songs we love to sing have less significance than others. My preference is to not sing those songs during the corporate worship time, or least not make them the main portion of the music we use. I prefer to relegate those songs to other gatherings, however.

But thanks, again, for causing me to review my thoughts about this.
I agree. I think that we put way too much responsibility on church leadership for own personal relationship with Christ. I think this leads to all kinds of problems.

I am old and hard headed but this discussion is interesting. And you are right of course, you likely see it from a leadership perspective and leadership does have the responsibility to choose songs most beneficial for the group. And that means most appropriate for the service. I can understand this.

I personally prefer the old hymns. Some of the newer stuff is ok. But the songs that have just a couple of lines that repeat over and over kinda get on my nerves. And part of that is for the reasons mentioned above. I think they have a beat but lack in substance.
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Unread 08-18-2021, 09:43 AM   #29
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I appreciate this conversation. Thank you to all who are participating.

Let me interject this thought that I got from a class I took that was partially based around THIS book.

If we aren't truly worshiping God with our daily lives, the songs we sing are inconsequential.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, in view of the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God; this is your true worship. Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

Romans 12:1-2 (CSB)
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Unread 08-18-2021, 03:43 PM   #30
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Let me say this lest someone misunderstand me.

I agree 100% that theologically sound worship can be emotional and move us on a personal level.

Is He Worthy? is one that clicks every button for me. I get goosebumps and tear up when singing it.
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