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Unread 01-10-2021, 06:57 PM   #31
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Yes but what about the BLM riots. Is there a hypothetical cause where the violence would be acceptable? Or should violence be condemned across the board?

Or is the location of the violence, at the Capital, what makes this worse?

I'm personally against violence in either case and can't think of an acceptable hypothetical.
I'm doing my very best to stay out of the political aspect of this.

Doesn't matter if you are BLM, Antifa, Proud Boy, or Capitol protestor; violence is never the answer. I'm being careful here. There are people in all of these movements who do not resort to violence. There were more people peacefully protesting at the Capitol than those who decided to storm in there. I condemn all violence regardless of the cause. I will also say this, many of the BLM riots (that's what they were) ended with buildings (some of them federal property) being burned to the ground and somehow many in the media still found a way to defend them as "mostly peaceful" protests. THAT is hypocrisy at its worst.

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Unread 01-10-2021, 10:06 PM   #32
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I'm doing my very best to stay out of the political aspect of this.

Doesn't matter if you are BLM, Antifa, Proud Boy, or Capitol protestor; violence is never the answer. I'm being careful here. There are people in all of these movements who do not resort to violence. There were more people peacefully protesting at the Capitol than those who decided to storm in there. I condemn all violence regardless of the cause. I will also say this, many of the BLM riots (that's what they were) ended with buildings (some of them federal property) being burned to the ground and somehow many in the media still found a way to defend them as "mostly peaceful" protests. THAT is hypocrisy at its worst.
Wow. Those BLM protests or riots you went to sure sound a lot scarier and more violent than the ones I went to. No wonder you think both sides are the same.
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Unread 01-11-2021, 12:43 AM   #33
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Just in case I get in trouble again for whatever it is the mods don't like here: Trump needs to be made an example of in order to save this democracy . 25th amendment, impeachment, BOTH, whatever. The toxicity of the right needs to be put in check. We need some sort of public display of disapproval of this type of behavior. Full stop.
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Unread 01-11-2021, 08:39 AM   #34
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Wow. Those BLM protests or riots you went to sure sound a lot scarier and more violent than the ones I went to. No wonder you think both sides are the same.
I'm pushing Leboman for his opinion. So i can be blamed of you are offended.

I am sure everyone would agree that a majority of the protests were friendly. But the fact is that there was much violence. Burning and looting happened. People were hurt and property destroyed. Should that violence, even if by a small part of the protesters, be condemned? Or does a legitimate cause make it excusable?
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Unread 01-11-2021, 08:46 AM   #35
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Just in case I get in trouble again for whatever it is the mods don't like here: Trump needs to be made an example of in order to save this democracy . 25th amendment, impeachment, BOTH, whatever. The toxicity of the right needs to be put in check. We need some sort of public display of disapproval of this type of behavior. Full stop.
What exacrly is the behavior that is so toxic and how is it different from the actions of other politicians? Kamala Harris in particular said that the BLM riots wouldn't stop and shouldn't stop after the election and also that being civil is not an option. Many Democrats voiced similar opinions during the worst of the violence.

Is the difference just the cause or am I missing something else?
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Unread 01-11-2021, 12:27 PM   #36
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I want to take a second to clarify what is and isn't acceptable in a thread that is, by nature, highly polarized and often tense. Our goal is to moderate fairly, and while we are imperfect, I hope we can work together with this little community to keep things moving in a productive direction.

Name-calling, like "You're an idiot if you think XYZ" or "DaGeek is a cotton headed ninny muggins" is not acceptable. Find a way to share how you are feeling in a way that does not dehumanize or degrade your fellow humans.

Personal attacks are also not acceptable here. This is a little bit trickier, because you might believe that someone's opinion is very wrong or even offensive. I would ask that you frame your disagreements in a way that doesn't make it about them as a person.

If you're not okay with a call that has been made, please reach out to one or all of us and we can talk. That can happen privately, or openly in a thread in SI&Q. If I make a bad call I want the opportunity to see that mistake and do better. I can't promise we will all agree, but I for one am open to any sincere conversation about the admin team's actions.

Let's all try to move forward with kindness and respect as a priority even while we each navigate a really difficult and painful time in American history.
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Unread 01-11-2021, 02:33 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by tlj009 View Post
I'm pushing Leboman for his opinion. So i can be blamed of you are offended.

I am sure everyone would agree that a majority of the protests were friendly. But the fact is that there was much violence. Burning and looting happened. People were hurt and property destroyed. Should that violence, even if by a small part of the protesters, be condemned? Or does a legitimate cause make it excusable?
Your first line does not compute, sorry.

Your second statement says what I don't feel like I need to. You're admitting that there is legitimacy on one side and not the other. I don't want to play "whataboutism" and talk about BLM protests when discussing the violent mob of seditionists that killed a capitol policeman on the steps of the housing place of our democratic institutions. My offense stems from false equivalencies.

The violence questions is something I wrestle with all the time - I'm an American, am I not? Was my country not founded on revolution? Is violence against property equivalent to violence against a life? Those are great questions and definitely worthy of discussion.

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What exacrly is the behavior that is so toxic and how is it different from the actions of other politicians? Kamala Harris in particular said that the BLM riots wouldn't stop and shouldn't stop after the election and also that being civil is not an option. Many Democrats voiced similar opinions during the worst of the violence.

Is the difference just the cause or am I missing something else?
This is a ridiculous statement. Again, false equivalencies. If, after four years, you can sit back and look at the rhetoric that is spewed out of the mouth of our President and then look at the rhetoric put forth by our Vice-President-Elect then I'm not sure there's much I can do to help you out with your question.

I also want to issue a blanket apology. I'm very, very passionate about some of these topics and apparently I get mean when I talk about it. I know it's probably not a good look, but it is what it is. I'll keep working on my civility and trying to have better ways of continuing discourse.
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Unread 01-11-2021, 04:07 PM   #38
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Your second statement says what I don't feel like I need to. You're admitting that there is legitimacy on one side and not the other. I don't want to play "whataboutism" and talk about BLM protests when discussing the violent mob of seditionists that killed a capitol policeman on the steps of the housing place of our democratic institutions. My offense stems from false equivalencies.
The problem with "legitimate" is that it is subjective. Everyone thinks that their cause is legitimate. So by establishing a precedent that violence is acceptable if the cause is legitimate, you really open the door for violence on from all sides. 75million people voted for Trump. 80 million voted for Biden. Both believe that their cause is legitimate. And both believe the oppositions cause isn't.

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This is a ridiculous statement. Again, false equivalencies. If, after four years, you can sit back and look at the rhetoric that is spewed out of the mouth of our President and then look at the rhetoric put forth by our Vice-President-Elect then I'm not sure there's much I can do to help you out with your question
Sorry, I was just speaking in terms of the Capital riot being compared to the BLM riots. And I was just asking you to explain why they are false equivalencies. You seem to agree that it is all rhetoric. A quick search tells me that there have been 25 deaths attributed to the BLM riots as of October. So rhetoric in support of the violence is bad. Sure, Trump is rude and obnoxious, but is his rhetoric really that different from the other side of the aisle. Trump is hardly the only obnoxious politician.

Please don't just dismiss the question by declaring it "false equivalencies". If you can't put it into words, that is fine, but it doesn't make the question ridiculous.
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Unread 01-11-2021, 04:19 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by tlj009 View Post
The problem with "legitimate" is that it is subjective. Everyone thinks that their cause is legitimate. So by establishing a precedent that violence is acceptable if the cause is legitimate, you really open the door for violence on from all sides. 75million people voted for Trump. 80 million voted for Biden. Both believe that their cause is legitimate. And both believe the oppositions cause isn't.


Sorry, I was just speaking in terms of the Capital riot being compared to the BLM riots. And I was just asking you to explain why they are false equivalencies. You seem to agree that it is all rhetoric. A quick search tells me that there have been 25 deaths attributed to the BLM riots as of October. So rhetoric in support of the violence is bad. Sure, Trump is rude and obnoxious, but is his rhetoric really that different from the other side of the aisle. Trump is hardly the only obnoxious politician.

Please don't just dismiss the question by declaring it "false equivalencies". If you can't put it into words, that is fine, but it doesn't make the question ridiculous.
Is legitimacy really subjective? The people who stormed our capitol were doing so under the guise that the election was "stolen" (whatever that means) even though it has been proven false in every instance that it matters (the courts). The people who are protesting at the BLM events are protesting a documented racial disparity of violence at the hands of law enforcement.

Also, I'd be interested to find out what *attributed to the BLM riots* means. Were they at the hands some of the rowdy counter-protesters showing up to raise hell? Again, my anecdotal evidence is that all of the protests I joined in (even in some larger cities) had organizers and leaders trying their damnedest to keep things non-violent even during confrontations with redneck agitators.

And, yes, Trump's rhetoric is different than the rhetoric coming across the aisle. That is precisely what I said in my earlier post. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
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Unread 01-11-2021, 04:32 PM   #40
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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ad-end/617629/

Food for thought here. David Frum is much more eloquent than I ever could be and I think he makes a great argument here that pertains to what is being discussed in this thread.
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Unread 01-11-2021, 08:23 PM   #41
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all I can contribute here is that there is credible evidence that all 50 capitals (including DC) are to expect armed protesters in the days around inauguration day. I live about 1 mile from the PA State Capital, am less than pleased.

also will add that the r/PublicFreakout sub-reddit has lots of on-the-ground footage from the 1/6 insurrection. pretty crazy stuff. includes footage of the death of the cop dragged into the crowd and beaten to death, and the shooting of the protester who smashed a window and was climbing through. very sad stuff.

now back to your regularly scheduled discourse.
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Unread 01-11-2021, 08:55 PM   #42
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Is legitimacy really subjective? The people who stormed our capitol were doing so under the guise that the election was "stolen" (whatever that means) even though it has been proven false in every instance that it matters (the courts). The people who are protesting at the BLM events are protesting a documented racial disparity of violence at the hands of law enforcement.
Yes, legitimacy is subjective. People have different life experiences and opinions. Because of that they believe different things.
Believing different things and being allowed to is freedom that I hope we never lose.

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Also, I'd be interested to find out what *attributed to the BLM riots* means. Were they at the hands some of the rowdy counter-protesters showing up to raise hell? Again, my anecdotal evidence is that all of the protests I joined in (even in some larger cities) had organizers and leaders trying their damnedest to keep things non-violent even during confrontations with redneck agitators.
I am sure the intention is always to keep things nonviolent, but that isn't what has happened. I expect that the protest at the capital was intended to be nonviolent. And I have no problem with Rednecks. I am not sure what aspect of the possible "agitators" that would imply.

But what I take from your comments is yes violence is justified if a person believes the cause to be legitimate. I am not sure that I agree. But I do think that in all the riots this past year, violence should be condemned. I also think that it ultimately hurts the cause.

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And, yes, Trump's rhetoric is different than the rhetoric coming across the aisle. That is precisely what I said in my earlier post. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
Rhetoric is designed to excite people's emotions. It lacks truth and sincerity. Politicians have used it to drive a wedge down the middle of our nation and the people are in turmoil. They pit half the nation against the other half and then are surprised at how bad the outcome is and refuse to see their own contribution to it.

The article that you posted is a prime example. It isn't written to proclaim a truth, convince people, portray knowledge, or be educational in any way. It is written to incite anger in those who agree and dehumanize those who don't.

I see political rhetoric from both sides causing much harm. I blame Democrats for much of the BLM violence because it was never condemned but was instead encouraged. I blame Trump for similar rhetoric that caused this last riot that was condemned by everyone. I blame them all for dehumanizing the opposition by the name calling and devisive language. They simply want to create an enemy to motivate their base.

Problem is that I think that was always the case. It is just exponentially worse this year.
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Unread 01-13-2021, 03:39 PM   #43
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Trump has officially been impeached again.
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Unread 01-13-2021, 06:22 PM   #44
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I heard that on the radio. What is the point? He is going to gone in a week.
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Unread 01-13-2021, 06:26 PM   #45
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They also said that Trump and thousands of his supporters are now banned from all social media? Some company called Parler is being driven out of business? What is going on here? I've really got to catch up on the news.
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