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Unread 01-19-2018, 08:21 AM   #1
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Divorce and remarriage as Christians

I have Christian friends who have divorced. Some divorced because their spouse cheated on them; Jesus says that this divorce is permitted (but not necessary). Some divorced because of different professional goals or failure to get on the same page about reconciling their spending habits to their income. Jesus doesn't say that this latter divorce is permissible.

Some Christians in both groups want to remarry.

From what I understand, there's debate on whether Christians can remarry no matter which group they are in from the two above.

I think Jesus's word about remarrying involving adultery only applies to the latter case. The former group, if they are the innocent party, is given an exemption:
31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

I think this is more complicated to discuss. I don't want to discuss all the grounds of divorce that might be legitimate (physical harm/oppression, abandonment). I'm not sure I want to debate all the ways that remarrying might be permissible, but that might be important (I only see one exemption. where in Scripture or early church tradition do you see otherwise?)

My question is, suppose that it is immoral to remarry after an illegitimate divorce and the Christian remarries anyway, how does a Christian repent? What does repentance look like?

I have in mind an answer, but I want more information from Scripture and tradition to inform me since they are most authoritative on ethics. I don't just want practical advice. (This doesn't concern my own life, and I'm not passing on the advice per se)

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Unread 01-19-2018, 08:56 AM   #2
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I wouldn't sweat the divorce thing so much, since based on a couple of verses earlier I'm pretty sure we're all doomed for Hell.
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Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
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Unread 01-19-2018, 11:01 AM   #3
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Following, because I had wondered a lot of the same things as athanatos before.
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Unread 01-19-2018, 08:30 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by athanatos View Post
I have Christian friends who have divorced. Some divorced because their spouse cheated on them; Jesus says that this divorce is permitted (but not necessary).
I would disagree with you here, where you say that the Messiah permitted divorce for "cheating". The only mention of an exception is in the Gospel of Matthew which is also where the story of Joseph and Mary is outlined in detail. Where Joseph was going to put Mary away privately, that is divorce her, because he believed she had fornicated during the betrothal period.

In the Gospel of Matthew where the exception clause is mentioned, two different words are used to distinguish fornication from adultery. This same distinction is made in other verses such as Galatians 5:19. The exception clause is in reference to fornication (Strong's g4202 πορνεία porneia ), and is distinguished from the word adultery ( Strong's g3429 μοιχάω moichaō ). This distinction is being made for a reason, and while fornication can refer to several sexual sins, including adultery, when the distinction is made it is clear that the former is to be distinguished from the latter.

The Messiah also said in the same chapter of the exception clause that "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." - Matthew 5:19.

Taking your interpretation of the exception clause to refer to marital cheating, you are now giving everyone grounds for divorce, because who can honestly claim that they have never had a moment of weakness and looked to lust?


My interpretation of the exception clause, which is the same interpretation of others like John Piper, is that the exception is only referring to situations like Joseph's, where he supposed that Mary had fornicated during the betrothal period.

This is why the parents of the bride would keep the proof of their daughter's virginity, in case a husband would bring an abusive charge against their daughter and try to divorce her by saying that he found her not to be a virgin upon consummating the marriage.

Deuteronomy 22:13-20 13 “If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, 14 and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin,’ 15 then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the evidence of the young woman’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 And the young woman’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her. 17 Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, “I found your daughter was not a virgin,” and yet these are the evidences of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 18 Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him; 19 and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

20 “But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, 21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.



This is what Yahushua the Messiah was talking about as an exception. The same thing that we find in the book of Deuteronomy.



Notice also how it was the Pharisees who were seeking a loophole for divorce.

Mark 10:2-12 2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. 3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? 4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. 5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.


9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. 11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.




Very clear response from the Messiah. The disciples understood exactly what The Messiah was saying and that is why they said that if that were the case, it would be better not to marry.



Luke 16:14-18 14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


Very simple and easy to understand statement on marriage and divorce.


1 Corinthians 7:10-11 10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Very clear command, not from Paul, but from the Lord, that people not get divorced, and if they get separated, let them remain unmarried and seek reconciliation with each other. No allowance for remarriage.

Marriage is for life. It is in the vows. It is in the Scriptures. Till death do we part. How hypocritical for Pastors to remarry divorced people with vows saying "Till death do we part" when their true spouse is still living.


1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.


The only biblical allowance for remarriage is if the spouse is dead.


Romans 7:2-3 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.


Again, the only biblical allowance for remarriage is if the spouse is dead.


The only biblically allowed exception for divorce is Fornication. If you marry a woman under false pretenses, believing she is a virgin, only to find out that she was not truly a virgin, that is an example of fornication. If you are engaged to a woman and she sleeps with another man during the betrothal period, that is fornication. If you sin sexually after you are already married, that is adultery. Fornication /= Adultery.

Here is a biblical example of an illegitimate marriage, which is not recognized by God and is indeed a continuous act of adultery and sin.


Herod and Herodias


Mark 6:17-20 17 For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife.” 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed, and yet he heard him gladly.




John the Baptist lost his life and was beheaded for telling Herod that it was not lawful for him to have his brother's wife. John the Baptist didn't tell Herod to acknowledge his sinful marriage to Herodias, feel sorry about it, believe in the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and simply move on while continuing his illegitimate marriage. No, he told him it is not lawful for him to have his brother's wife. As long as Herod kept his brother's wife, although he had married her and took Herodias as wife, it was not lawful and the marriage was illegitimate. It was a continuous act of adultery that needed to be repented of. John the Baptist was telling Herod to separate from Herodias his illegitimate wife, because she was not actually his wife, but still the wife of his brother.


Quote:
I think this is more complicated to discuss. I don't want to discuss all the grounds of divorce that might be legitimate (physical harm/oppression, abandonment). I'm not sure I want to debate all the ways that remarrying might be permissible, but that might be important (I only see one exemption. where in Scripture or early church tradition do you see otherwise?)
You say you don't want to discuss these things, but you bring them up in your original post and make your position known. Perhaps this can be separated into a new thread, because there is no way I am not responding to those things you brought up.

Quote:
My question is, suppose that it is immoral to remarry after an illegitimate divorce and the Christian remarries anyway, how does a Christian repent? What does repentance look like?
I believe John the Baptist makes the answer clear. It is not lawful for them to remain together. They must forsake their illegitimate marriage.

This is tough. I know. I have immediate family involved in illegitimate marriages and in one case, they now have children whom I love and care about. I can't let my emotions dictate what the Scriptures clearly say though. I would really recommend fasting and praying and seeking God for guidance on a matter such as this, but the answer remains the same. “It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife.” "So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress".

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Romans 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
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Romans 10:2-4

2I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.[a]

Romans 9:30-33

30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

Last edited by Daniel21TX; 01-20-2018 at 09:56 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Unread 01-20-2018, 12:43 PM   #5
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Here is a biblical example of an illegitimate marriage, which is not recognized by God and is indeed a continuous act of adultery and sin.


Herod and Herodias

Mark 6:17-20 17 For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife. 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed, and yet he heard him gladly.


John the Baptist lost his life and was beheaded for telling Herod that it was not lawful for him to have his brother's wife. John the Baptist didn't tell Herod to acknowledge his sinful marriage to Herodias, feel sorry about it, believe in the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and simply move on while continuing his illegitimate marriage. No, he told him it is not lawful for him to have his brother's wife. As long as Herod kept his brother's wife, although he had married her and took Herodias as wife, it was not lawful and the marriage was illegitimate. It was a continuous act of adultery that needed to be repented of. John the Baptist was telling Herod to separate from Herodias his illegitimate wife, because she was not actually his wife, but still the wife of his brother.


You say you don't want to discuss these things, but you bring them up in your original post and make your position known. Perhaps this can be separated into a new thread, because there is no way I am not responding to those things you brought up.
Thanks for bringing up this specific case in Scripture. I think this aids the discussion.

Quote:
I believe John the Baptist makes the answer clear. It is not lawful for them to remain together. They must forsake their illegitimate marriage.
It might be worth asking whether "lawful" means according to divine command, by national law, or something else, and how you might determine it.

(Saying that John the Baptist would only have spoken of divine commandments would be begging the question)

Quote:
"So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress".[Romans 7:3]
Why think that this verse is speaking about a divorced woman as well? Nothing in the context says that, does it?
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Unread 01-20-2018, 12:46 PM   #6
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I wouldn't sweat the divorce thing so much, since based on a couple of verses earlier I'm pretty sure we're all doomed for Hell.
If the Lord willed that all of life is repentance, then we need to know what ways we can continue to repent, whether in word, in lust, or deed.

But I get your point, I think: we don't necessarily need a policy, just as we don't have a church butcher's knife for the man who sins with his hand or sharp spoon for the eye. So, might our expectations in implementing a policy be missing the point?
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Unread 01-20-2018, 02:40 PM   #7
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If the Lord willed that all of life is repentance, then we need to know what ways we can continue to repent, whether in word, in lust, or deed.

But I get your point, I think: we don't necessarily need a policy, just as we don't have a church butcher's knife for the man who sins with his hand or sharp spoon for the eye. So, might our expectations in implementing a policy be missing the point?
Yes, that's what I'm getting at. I know that sounds uncomfortable to our systems. We're looking for rules and standards so that we can wrap our minds around what it actually means to live as God's people.

The Sermon on the Mount may be telling us that we keep trying to reduce godliness with following the rules, just as the Pharisees did with the Torah. But we can never accomplish that, not really. Or maybe it's telling us that we all suck, we all deserve to fry, but that God is still calling us into fellowship with him.
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Unread 01-20-2018, 03:01 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by athanatos View Post

It might be worth asking whether "lawful" means according to divine command, by national law, or something else, and how you might determine it.

(Saying that John the Baptist would only have spoken of divine commandments would be begging the question)
I believe that it is self apparent with any honest reading of the Scriptures. Herod was the Roman-appointed governor of Judaea. In ancient Rome men had the right to divorce their wives. The Republican law code of the Twelve Tables allowed divorce. Divorce was socially acceptable in Roman culture and pretty common. If John the Baptist was only calling into question the lawfulness of Herod's marriage to Herodias in respect to Roman law, he could have simply told them to carry out an informal Roman divorce which was very easy to accomplish. There would have been no need for John the Baptist to die the way he did.

A brief reading on ancient Roman marriage and divorce supports my position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_ancient_Rome


Quote:
Why think that this verse is speaking about a divorced woman as well? Nothing in the context says that, does it?
The context says that a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. The context also makes it clear that the only thing that looses a wife from her husband is death.

Romans 7:2-3 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.


Also, the Scriptural witnesses agree.


1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.


Marriage is for life. It is right there in the Scriptures. That is the very reason why the vows read "till death do we part".

"For better or for worse", that covers everything. Is cheating worse? Yes. It is included and covered by the vows. On the other hand, if you make a marriage covenant agreement under false pretenses, and upon consummating the marriage you find that your bride that you have taken was not truly a virgin as she had claimed, there is an exception made for that. Or for instance, if you are engaged, and during the betrothal period your fiance fornicates, as Joseph had suspected of Mary, there is an exception for that.

Deuteronomy 22:13-20 13 “If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, 14 and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin,’ 15 then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the evidence of the young woman’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 And the young woman’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her. 17 Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, “I found your daughter was not a virgin,” and yet these are the evidences of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 18 Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him; 19 and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

20 “But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, 21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.


This is the exception referenced in Matthew chapters 5 & 19.


In the New Covenant the only Biblical allowance for remarriage is for widows and widowers.
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Romans 10:2-4

2I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.[a]

Romans 9:30-33

30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

Last edited by Daniel21TX; 01-20-2018 at 09:54 PM.
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Unread 01-20-2018, 03:18 PM   #9
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Yes, that's what I'm getting at. I know that sounds uncomfortable to our systems. We're looking for rules and standards so that we can wrap our minds around what it actually means to live as God's people.

The Sermon on the Mount may be telling us that we keep trying to reduce godliness with following the rules, just as the Pharisees did with the Torah. But we can never accomplish that, not really. Or maybe it's telling us that we all suck, we all deserve to fry, but that God is still calling us into fellowship with him.
Hopefully it helps keep us all humbled with broken hearts and a contrite spirit. We must believe Him and what He told us though. If we love Him, we must keep His commandments.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Luke 13:23-24 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 7:13-14 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Matthew 19:24-26 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


John 15:4-6 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 Peter 4:17-18 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
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Romans 10:2-4

2I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.[a]

Romans 9:30-33

30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

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Unread 01-20-2018, 04:45 PM   #10
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You just portrayed exactly what I'm saying. And you added a bunch of proof texts to make it more proofier.

If you have ever hated someone, you're going to Hell right along with those who divorced outside of Jesus' clear teaching on this.

And if you can figure out how someone can find redemption on the other side of hating someone, you can figure out the Christian response to marriage, divorce, and re-marriage.
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Unread 01-20-2018, 05:52 PM   #11
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You just portrayed exactly what I'm saying. And you added a bunch of proof texts to make it more proofier.

If you have ever hated someone, you're going to Hell right along with those who divorced outside of Jesus' clear teaching on this.

And if you can figure out how someone can find redemption on the other side of hating someone, you can figure out the Christian response to marriage, divorce, and re-marriage.

Not trying to derail the thread from the original topic, but in response to your post, the answer is repentance from sin and faith in Jesus the Messiah of Nazareth. There is forgiveness of sins through the precious blood of the Lamb of YHWH. The grace of our God is not to be turned into lasciviousness though, God commands all men to repent.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.


Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


Repent, go and sin no more.


Ezekiel 18:20-32 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.


23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord YHWH: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.


25 Yet ye say, The way of YHWH is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?


26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of YHWH is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?


30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord YHWH. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord YHWH: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.




Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.




Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.




Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.





2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


We must all be honest with ourselves. God is not mocked. We all need mercy and forgiveness, and the good news is that we have that in the finished work of Yahushua the Messiah. We can know whether or not we are in the faith, by the constant work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.


1 John 2:1-6 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


Repentance itself is granted to us by God. If you put your faith in Yahushua the Messiah, He will grant you repentance unto life.


Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.




If you want to know what repentance from an illegitimate marriage would look like, I would point to John the Baptist and his exchange with Herod and Herodias.
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Romans 10:2-4

2I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.[a]

Romans 9:30-33

30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

Last edited by Daniel21TX; 01-20-2018 at 07:38 PM.
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Unread 01-22-2018, 10:55 AM   #12
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The context says that a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. The context also makes it clear that the only thing that looses a wife from her husband is death.

Romans 7:2-3 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.


Also, the Scriptural witnesses agree.


1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
I think you just begged the question.

The passage illustrates how being dead to the law releases us from its condemnation. Marriage is for life, so is the bondage to sin. That's its context. The analogy is not a perfect correspondence, but it is clear for what it is intending.

Paul's force relies on the reader's idea that marriage is a legal bond for life.

But legal bonds for life are not without exceptions. Can slaves not be released tho they were bonded for life? Can sons not be disowned? What do you think divorce is but a release from bond?

By pointing to this passage to say that there are no exceptions is merely an argument from silence. You can only be persuaded by this if you think that the lack of enumerating any exceptions in the immediate passage indicate that there are no exceptions to list.

Maybe you're thinking, "it's not merely legal, but covenantal"

Okay, but can't the bonds of a slave or family be covenantal? I think it's a good case of it, actually. But even if you say those are not covenantal, can we not be released or enter into a new covenant in a way that overrides the other?
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Unread 01-22-2018, 10:58 AM   #13
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But legal bonds for life are not without exceptions. Can slaves not be released tho they were bonded for life? Can sons not be disowned?
fyi, I think these are legit cases. Why didn't Paul use them to illustrate release from the condemnation of the law, given he talks about slavery and sonship? Because for the analogy to work well, it needs to be relevantly similar -- but in this context we'd be talking about releasing from bond in a way that would look like the law freed us, or that the law disowned us. That's not what Paul wants to communicate.
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Unread 01-22-2018, 12:58 PM   #14
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I think you just begged the question.
Listing multiple verses from two different books of the bible to prove my point directly from Scripture, would not be an example of "begging the question".



Quote:
The passage illustrates how being dead to the law releases us from its condemnation.
The passage clearly says what it says in both Romans 7 and 1 Corinthians 7.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Romans chapter 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.



Romans 8:1-13 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.



That is the context.

Quote:
Marriage is for life, so is the bondage to sin. That's its context. The analogy is not a perfect correspondence, but it is clear for what it is intending.
Marriage is indeed for life and I agree that it is very clear what Paul is saying in both 1 Corinthians 7 and Romans 7. The context is clear. The only thing that looses a person from their marriage is death. 1 Corinthians 7 is not even bringing up the same analogy that was used when writing to the Romans, and yet the fact remains the same. You are bound to your spouse so long as they live.

Quote:
Paul's force relies on the reader's idea that marriage is a legal bond for life.
We agree here. Marriage is for life and that is what is consistently taught throughout Scripture.


Quote:
But legal bonds for life are not without exceptions.
There is only one exception given and it is listed in Matthew chapters 5 and 19 which is referencing situations like that of Deuteronomy 22:13-20, which is the situation that Joseph had thought he found himself in when he saw that Mary was pregnant.




Quote:
What do you think divorce is but a release from bond?
Divorce is a precept given under the old covenant by Moses for the hardness of people's hearts.

Mark 10:4-5 4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.



Divorce is not the way God intended things to be from the beginning.

Mark 10:6-8 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.




Divorce is something which we are commanded not to do.

Mark 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

1 Corinthians 7:10-11 10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.



Divorce is something that YHWH hates.

Malachi 2:16 For YHWH, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith YHWH of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.


Divorce is something that is not allowed except for in the case of fornication, which is a reference to Deuteronomy 22:13-20

Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.



Quote:
By pointing to this passage to say that there are no exceptions is merely an argument from silence.
It is not an argument from silence when it says in every Scripture that you are bound to your spouse for as long as you or the spouse lives.

The verses are excluding any other exceptions for being loosed from your marriage.

Read the verses again.

Romans 7:2-3 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.


1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.



It clearly says what it says, leaving no possibility for any other exceptions. A spouse is bound for as long as they or their spouse lives.
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Romans 10:2-4

2I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.[a]

Romans 9:30-33

30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

Last edited by Daniel21TX; 01-22-2018 at 10:23 PM.
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Unread 01-23-2018, 03:46 AM   #15
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Wow. I usually skip even the most interesting theology threads cos tl;dr; (I am that lazy).

This is actually very interesting. Read this whole thread.

For the masses that are uneducated in Theology and can only think practically (a.k.a. me), can I come with some follow up questions based on real life?

Lets call it couple 1:

Married couple. Woman turns out to be crazy. She pulls a knife on the husband when he is in bed and keeps threatening him.

Is it against scripture for this man to leave his wife, seeing how she is a threat to his life?

Is it against scripture for this man to remarry?

Couple 2:

Married couple. After decades of marriage the husband divorces his wife in order to date/marry younger women. How should the woman left behind act in order to comply with Gods word?

Bonus:

What if a spouse is violent against the other spouse? Is it just a legal matter, or does scripture have something to say here.

What about in cases where one of the spouses abuses the children? May it be physically, psychologically, sexually, verbally...

I am aware that in the eyes of the law and society, these are more than enough for a separation/divorce. But what about from the scripture side?
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