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Unread 05-03-2018, 09:22 AM   #16
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I wasn’t any kind of scout and don’t have much familiarity with either program (other than buying the cookies, of course), so I can’t say I care too much about these changes either way. Framing it as boys transitioning into men is interesting, though. What skills do boys learn in Boy Scouts that aid their transition into men that wouldn’t be useful for girls in their transition into women? Or are these just generally useful experiences for children transitioning into adulthood?

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Unread 05-03-2018, 07:09 PM   #17
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Most of the skills gained are not particularly useful, because maturity is not primarily a matter of gaining skills. Rather scouting holds out an initiation into a way of being through mentorship, peer relationships, and character formation. Girls can't become men together as can boys (nor can boys become women together as can men), etc.

What seems to be left is a club for outdoor recreation, which is fine, but it's not the Scouting I saw at that Eagle ceremony.
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Unread 05-04-2018, 11:46 AM   #18
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Most of the skills gained are not particularly useful, because maturity is not primarily a matter of gaining skills. Rather scouting holds out an initiation into a way of being through mentorship, peer relationships, and character formation. Girls can't become men together as can boys (nor can boys become women together as can men), etc.

What seems to be left is a club for outdoor recreation, which is fine, but it's not the Scouting I saw at that Eagle ceremony.
That is a fairly accurate way of looking at it (as an Eagle Scout myself).

In some ways, it's helpful to look at it from the perspective of a youth group. It's beneficial to have both genders together, but sometimes you need to have them separated.
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Unread 05-04-2018, 12:09 PM   #19
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That is a fairly accurate way of looking at it (as an Eagle Scout myself).

In some ways, it's helpful to look at it from the perspective of a youth group. It's beneficial to have both genders together, but sometimes you need to have them separated.

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Unread 05-04-2018, 01:20 PM   #20
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Yeah, I’m still not getting it. Mentorship, peer relationships, and character formation? Why the focus on “boys becoming men together” and “girls becoming women together”, rather than “children growing up into adults together”?

I don’t remember my youth group being separated by gender either, aside from, like, a very occasional “don’t have sex” talk.
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Unread 05-05-2018, 05:32 AM   #21
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I teach the high school Sunday school class at our church and it is not gendered because it is about children growing toward maturity. At the same time, once or twice we have broken into gendered groups (co-teacher is female) and we hear completely new categories of questions and comments, a new type of openness and shared experience. This despite no change in lesson topic. This holds when all of one gender is absent one week, as well.

I don't think the notion of Eagle ceremony as doorway to manhood-not-womanhood can make sense if, on the conviction likely undergirding the transition from Boy Scouts to Scouting, we recognize only sameness between sexes, not also difference, or if we take sex to be about self-expression and self-gratification rather than a way of being.
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Unread 05-05-2018, 10:20 AM   #22
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I teach the high school Sunday school class at our church and it is not gendered because it is about children growing toward maturity. At the same time, once or twice we have broken into gendered groups (co-teacher is female) and we hear completely new categories of questions and comments, a new type of openness and shared experience. This despite no change in lesson topic. This holds when all of one gender is absent one week, as well.

I don't think the notion of Eagle ceremony as doorway to manhood-not-womanhood can make sense if, on the conviction likely undergirding the transition from Boy Scouts to Scouting, we recognize only sameness between sexes, not also difference, or if we take sex to be about self-expression and self-gratification rather than a way of being.
Hmm. Does this not, to some extent, assume a degree of sameness within a sex or gender that may not in fact be the case? In other words, that there's a shared concept of manhood that all boys should be striving for and transitioning into, despite their individual differences in background and personality? And the same, obviously, for girls, and a singular vision of femininity/womanhood that they're moving into. It now occurs to me that I'm not aware of an Eagle Scout-like title or ceremony for Girl Scouts -- is there one?

I certainly won't dispute the value of occasional single-gender groups for conversation. Maybe I don't know enough about the typical Scout gatherings, but I'm assuming sometimes they're meeting in large groups (which seem to me as though they could be potentially be co-ed) and sometimes in smaller groups (where it may sometimes be useful to split out by gender, but probably not always). Though, to reiterate, I'm far less interested in the actual scheduling and logistics of how to run a co-ed Scouting group than in the assumptions underlying people's opinions of whether or not that's a good idea.
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Unread 05-07-2018, 05:03 PM   #23
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Hmm. Does this not, to some extent, assume a degree of sameness within a sex or gender that may not in fact be the case? In other words, that there's a shared concept of manhood that all boys should be striving for and transitioning into, despite their individual differences in background and personality? And the same, obviously, for girls, and a singular vision of femininity/womanhood that they're moving into. It now occurs to me that I'm not aware of an Eagle Scout-like title or ceremony for Girl Scouts -- is there one?

I certainly won't dispute the value of occasional single-gender groups for conversation. Maybe I don't know enough about the typical Scout gatherings, but I'm assuming sometimes they're meeting in large groups (which seem to me as though they could be potentially be co-ed) and sometimes in smaller groups (where it may sometimes be useful to split out by gender, but probably not always). Though, to reiterate, I'm far less interested in the actual scheduling and logistics of how to run a co-ed Scouting group than in the assumptions underlying people's opinions of whether or not that's a good idea.
The equivalent for Girl Scouts is the Gold Award.

I think people would care less about this is if either scouting organization had a perception of looser curriculum vs. the current perception of "Boy Scouts = camping, Girl Scouts = slumber parties".
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Unread 05-07-2018, 07:06 PM   #24
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The equivalent for Girl Scouts is the Gold Award.

I think people would care less about this is if either scouting organization had a perception of looser curriculum vs. the current perception of "Boy Scouts = camping, Girl Scouts = slumber parties".
Perhaps it is because my sister was a girl scout for a little while, and her troop went camping... but that is not my perception of girl scouts. Is it not normal for Girl Scouts to camp? I concede that it may have been different for my area, growing up in the mountains.
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Unread 05-15-2018, 11:32 AM   #25
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Perhaps it is because my sister was a girl scout for a little while, and her troop went camping... but that is not my perception of girl scouts. Is it not normal for Girl Scouts to camp? I concede that it may have been different for my area, growing up in the mountains.
I've heard of other girl scout groups camping, but definitely always thrown out like it was a feminized version of camping, not a bunch of kids throwing knives and chopping down trees or whatever.
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