Go Back   Christian Guitar Forum > Deeper Issues > Theology
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Arcade Mark Forums Read

Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 09-04-2017, 09:56 PM   #46
Old School
Administrator
 
Leboman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Geezerville
Posts: 55,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost Enough View Post
I've been following the discussion on the mobile app so won't post a full response till I have time but I thought I would play devil's advocate here.

I have enough on my plate dealing with my own sins to worry about telling other people how to deal with theirs. That's not my job anyways. My job is to point people to Jesus and tell them how He has changed me.

As for the history of statements like this I think Evangelicals have a lot to learn from the RCC. They have a longer history of interpreting Scripture in cross-cultural contexts and their statements on difficult subjects like this tend to be a lot more nuanced and thought out than this statement.
Did Paul (the so-called chief of sinners) shy away from addressing sin? If we are not addressing sin and how to overcome it then what exactly are we supposed to teach and preach? The good news is that we are sinners and Jesus died for us. Part of proclaiming the gospel is calling people to repent.

__________________
Nothing (Without You)
Granville Center Church of Christ Sermons
YouTube
My German is pre-industrial and mostly religious.
Leboman is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 09-05-2017, 12:21 AM   #47
by hope we steer
 
Almost Enough's Avatar
 

Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Far Northern California
Posts: 2,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leboman View Post

Did Paul (the so-called chief of sinners) shy away from addressing sin? If we are not addressing sin and how to overcome it then what exactly are we supposed to teach and preach? The good news is that we are sinners and Jesus died for us. Part of proclaiming the gospel is calling people to repent.
Sin is far more than what we do. It is a state of being. That means that making a blanket statement involving multiple related but separate issues (gender identity, sexual orientation, male and female roles) does nothing but add fuel to fire. If the statement was more nuanced and dealt with the fallen state in which we find ourselves in context to our place in time and space it would hold more weight.

I agree with almost everything the statement says. I don't agree with where it is coming from and the fact that it sounds like the writers half assed their essay the night before it was due. I don't agree with a couple key parts that have already been brought to light here in this thread too.

And I still would never sign it and would actually probably be willing to lose support from an organization or church body that would try to make me sign it in order to keep support.
Almost Enough is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 07:28 AM   #48
Old School
Administrator
 
Leboman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Geezerville
Posts: 55,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost Enough View Post
Sin is far more than what we do. It is a state of being. That means that making a blanket statement involving multiple related but separate issues (gender identity, sexual orientation, male and female roles) does nothing but add fuel to fire. If the statement was more nuanced and dealt with the fallen state in which we find ourselves in context to our place in time and space it would hold more weight.

I agree with almost everything the statement says. I don't agree with where it is coming from and the fact that it sounds like the writers half assed their essay the night before it was due. I don't agree with a couple key parts that have already been brought to light here in this thread too.

And I still would never sign it and would actually probably be willing to lose support from an organization or church body that would try to make me sign it in order to keep support.
You could make this argument concerning any sinful thought, activity, or lifestyle.

We call out those who want to make racism seem okay. We call out those who abuse their spouses and children. We don't seem to have a problem until we call out this sin. Why is that?

FWIW, I would try to coerce or force anyone to sign it either.

I still haven't seen anyone point out the language concerning "eternal subordination" and I'm still not seeing it when I read it. Therefore, I really can't comment on that.
__________________
Nothing (Without You)
Granville Center Church of Christ Sermons
YouTube
My German is pre-industrial and mostly religious.
Leboman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 07:36 AM   #49
Deets Go Here
 
bravesfan007's Avatar
 

Joined: Jul 2002
Location: Right Behind You
Posts: 14,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost Enough View Post
Sin is far more than what we do. It is a state of being. That means that making a blanket statement involving multiple related but separate issues (gender identity, sexual orientation, male and female roles) does nothing but add fuel to fire.
Do you really think it would have been received better they issued three different statements? Please. There would have been more uproar out of three different statements than one like this.All of these issues are grouped together because they are related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost Enough View Post
If the statement was more nuanced and dealt with the fallen state in which we find ourselves in context to our place in time and space it would hold more weight.
Can you give an example of this nuance you are thinking about? I think it is specifically appropriate because of the cultural changes of Christianity.It would not be any better received if it was written in 2020 or 2025. If anything, they're better writing it now than waiting for years for the cultural to continue to change. One could argue that it should have been done fifteen years ago for that matter before a lot of the current issues were on the forefront of people's brains.
__________________
If you are offended by most posts, please do not feel alone. I am an equal opportunity offender. I will offend everyone.

Follow my ramblings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainer.
Your mother appears to have been infected by Kentl.
bravesfan007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 07:48 AM   #50
Old School
Administrator
 
Leboman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Geezerville
Posts: 55,881
Let me also add (because I'm sure someone will point it out) that the Church has NOT done a good job of addressing other sins either. We're not going to stop the current conversations about racism because of past failures are we? I agree that the optics aren't the greatest but it does call out all sexual sin in the statement. Why the focus on the LGBT stuff? My only guess is because that's the issue many folks don't feel is a sin to begin with.
__________________
Nothing (Without You)
Granville Center Church of Christ Sermons
YouTube
My German is pre-industrial and mostly religious.
Leboman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 08:19 AM   #51
ITALICS
Administrator
 
mtlmouth's Avatar
 

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,400
paid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leboman
Let me also add (because I'm sure someone will point it out) that the Church has NOT done a good job of addressing other sins either. We're not going to stop the current conversations about racism because of past failures are we? I agree that the optics aren't the greatest but it does call out all sexual sin in the statement. Why the focus on the LGBT stuff? My only guess is because that's the issue many folks don't feel is a sin to begin with.
It's kind of the opposite situation. Racists have found shelter in the church and sometimes used it as a conduit for their racism. No one in the church is preaching sermons condemning racism in such strong terms that racist teenagers believe they're beyond help and kill themselves to escape their demons.

Also, nobody is born racist.

I wish American churches were half as concerned about racism among their ranks as they are about some people being gay.
mtlmouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 08:38 AM   #52
Old School
Administrator
 
Leboman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Geezerville
Posts: 55,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtlmouth View Post
It's kind of the opposite situation. Racists have found shelter in the church and sometimes used it as a conduit for their racism. No one in the church is preaching sermons condemning racism in such strong terms that racist teenagers believe they're beyond help and kill themselves to escape their demons.

Also, nobody is born racist.

I wish American churches were half as concerned about racism among their ranks as they are about some people being gay.
And I believe that we NEED to be addressing it. We NEED to address ALL sin. I agree that the Church has made many mistakes and still does. I can't let that be an excuse to not address sin. All sin. I have a problem with people who focus in on one thing. I was prepared to hate The Nashville Statement before I even read it. Then I read it. I'm not one to make official statements just for the the sake of making them but maybe it's time to make a statement calling out these other issues.
__________________
Nothing (Without You)
Granville Center Church of Christ Sermons
YouTube
My German is pre-industrial and mostly religious.
Leboman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 08:39 AM   #53
Old School
Administrator
 
Leboman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Geezerville
Posts: 55,881
I kept this separate from my last comment because it's about something different. Didn't know if any of you had seen this.

Rosaria Butterfield
__________________
Nothing (Without You)
Granville Center Church of Christ Sermons
YouTube
My German is pre-industrial and mostly religious.
Leboman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 08:48 AM   #54
by hope we steer
 
Almost Enough's Avatar
 

Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Far Northern California
Posts: 2,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leboman View Post

You could make this argument concerning any sinful thought, activity, or lifestyle.

We call out those who want to make racism seem okay. We call out those who abuse their spouses and children. We don't seem to have a problem until we call out this sin. Why is that?
.
I think we are saying the same thing here. My experience with my evangelical friends and institutions has shown that they don't call out those sins unless they are perpetuated by an other that is of a different ideology, gender, race, religion, country, whatever. I have experienced more evangelical friends being fine living within a grey area and siding towards grace and not issuing a line in the sand regarding these issues. Maybe it's because I go to church with a bunch of cops, but one example is institutional and structural racism, police culture and brutality. A real issue that affects more people in a more direct way and in a relational and societal way (i tend to look at how our sins to distinguish if they are victimless (affecting me, my heart, my relationship with God, and indirectly then to others) vs transactional (directly affecting another person)).

Where's a Nashville statement on unchecked corporate greed and power at the cost of the citizens of nations all over the world? Where's the Nashville statement on political corruption that has allowed our elected politicians to all but ignore their constituents in the past few decades? Are we just going to issue statements that hit two stipulations of being prominent on American television and having a targeted subset of a miniscule amount of our population?

Again I'm in mobile do sorry for typos and not answering all replies.
Almost Enough is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 08:52 AM   #55
Old School
Administrator
 
Leboman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Geezerville
Posts: 55,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost Enough View Post
Where's a Nashville statement on unchecked corporate greed and power at the cost of the citizens of nations all over the world? Where's the Nashville statement on political corruption that has allowed our elected politicians to all but ignore their constituents in the past few decades? Are we just going to issue statements that hit two stipulations of being prominent on American television and having a targeted subset of a miniscule amount of our population?

Again I'm in mobile do sorry for typos and not answering all replies.
Perhaps it is time for ALL of those. I agree that the Church has been either passive, silent, or complicit in many of these areas for too long and it is time for it to stop.
__________________
Nothing (Without You)
Granville Center Church of Christ Sermons
YouTube
My German is pre-industrial and mostly religious.
Leboman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 08:58 AM   #56
ITALICS
Administrator
 
mtlmouth's Avatar
 

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,400
paid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leboman
Perhaps it is time for ALL of those. I agree that the Church has been either passive, silent, or complicit in many of these areas for too long and it is time for it to stop.
So maybe deep down that's my REAL problem with this statement*: why start with this issue, which pretty much everybody already knows the church's stance on, which primarily affects a small minority of people who already face discrimination in society? It seems almost mean-spirited to start with this issue when there are so many others that are more widespread and less addressed and where the church's stance needs to be more clearly communicated to the public.

*aside from the fact that I just flat-out disagree with a few of the articles.
mtlmouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 09:05 AM   #57
Old School
Administrator
 
Leboman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Geezerville
Posts: 55,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtlmouth View Post
So maybe deep down that's my REAL problem with this statement*: why start with this issue, which pretty much everybody already knows the church's stance on, which primarily affects a small minority of people who already face discrimination in society? It seems almost mean-spirited to start with this issue when there are so many others that are more widespread and less addressed and where the church's stance needs to be more clearly communicated to the public.

*aside from the fact that I just flat-out disagree with a few of the articles.
I confess, I see nothing mean-spirited about it. I agree that the timing is odd and I'm not sure why they decided to release it now but I pretty much agree with it. Our congregation recently drew up an official marriage policy (it addresses things other than same sex marriage in case you're wondering). We didn't do this because we felt compelled to do it. We did it because out insurance company told us that we needed to have it. That was something that wasn't even on our radar. We never thought we would have to "officially" address this in such a manner. It wasn't out of hate or spite, as I'm sure some might believe. It was simply for protection. And in case some may think it wasn't difficult, we have a family here with an adult son who is gay. We also have a young person currently struggling with gender identity so it's not an issue we take lightly.
__________________
Nothing (Without You)
Granville Center Church of Christ Sermons
YouTube
My German is pre-industrial and mostly religious.
Leboman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 09:32 AM   #58
and you were wondering??
Administrator
 
Uptown Thrunk's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2004
Location: In the bedrock of Being.
Posts: 14,711
paid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
I confess, I see nothing mean-spirited about it. I agree that the timing is odd and I'm not sure why they decided to release it now but I pretty much agree with it. Our congregation recently drew up an official marriage policy (it addresses things other than same sex marriage in case you're wondering). We didn't do this because we felt compelled to do it. We did it because out insurance company told us that we needed to have it. That was something that wasn't even on our radar. We never thought we would have to "officially" address this in such a manner. It wasn't out of hate or spite, as I'm sure some might believe. It was simply for protection. And in case some may think it wasn't difficult, we have a family here with an adult son who is gay. We also have a young person currently struggling with gender identity so it's not an issue we take lightly.
I don't know if you are familiar with many who signed this, but it definitely raises the 'mean-spirited' charge. Just take a look at Robert Gagnon's oeuvre. The guy is quite mean, especially toward those who are pro-LGBT.
__________________
Hello! Come visit my blog! http://taylormweaver.wordpress.com/

Yes... I am the official "Knight Who Will Write Something On Derrida".
Bask in the wonderful glory.

"outside of a dog a book is a man's best friend... inside a dog it is too dark to read."
-groucho marx

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter View Post
Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
Uptown Thrunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 09:34 AM   #59
by hope we steer
 
Almost Enough's Avatar
 

Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Far Northern California
Posts: 2,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leboman View Post

I confess, I see nothing mean-spirited about it. I agree that the timing is odd and I'm not sure why they decided to release it now but I pretty much agree with it. .
I might be going out on a limb but I think it has to do with power structures within our country being back in line with conservatives. I'm not saying it's a bad thing or a good thing (it's bad for some things and good for others).

Last edited by Almost Enough; 09-05-2017 at 09:54 AM.
Almost Enough is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2017, 09:39 AM   #60
Old School
Administrator
 
Leboman's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Geezerville
Posts: 55,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uptown Thrunk View Post
I don't know if you are familiar with many who signed this, but it definitely raises the 'mean-spirited' charge. Just take a look at Robert Gagnon's oeuvre. The guy is quite mean, especially toward those who are pro-LGBT.
Honestly, I haven't gone through every single name on there. Even if I did, I'm sure there are many I am totally unfamiliar with. I can also point out those on the list who aren't mean-spirited.
__________________
Nothing (Without You)
Granville Center Church of Christ Sermons
YouTube
My German is pre-industrial and mostly religious.
Leboman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:09 PM.


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2