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Unread 09-04-2017, 07:47 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Leboman
I guess the apostle Paul was guilty of preaching something other than Christ when he wrote: 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. - 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 (NIV) Was Paul being too focused on sexual sin? There is nothing I read in that document that declares hatred towards anyone. If people want to interpret the declaration of biblical values as hatred then the problem is not with the ones making the statement.
Again, you are simplifying what i'm saying and turning it into something i am NOT saying.

I am saying that the church is choosing to make a big PUBLIC deal out of something, when they aren't showing love in the basics as a whole.

I'm not saying that the words in the document express hate, i'm saying that the act of creating this document is a poor choice, poor timing, and based in a culture of christian arrogance and hate.

I'm saying stop looking at the words within this document, and think about WHY it was created and what that says to a broken and hurting world.

Also:

Paul was speaking TO believers. Believers who knew him, or at least the leadership knew him! He wasn't making a declaration to those who didn't know Jesus.

When Jesus told people "go and sin no more" it was always AFTER forgiveness and healing had already been freely given.

And hey, can we also acknowledge the fact that this document is attempting to add to the christian creed? That's the purpose of article 10 - all christians must believe this, and disagreeing is not an option.

I'm sorry, but why is our generation so arrogant to think we can add to what the requirements of being called "christian" are?

I believe the Apostles Creed is just fine on its own as a basis for all believers.

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Unread 09-04-2017, 08:22 AM   #32
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Again, you are simplifying what i'm saying and turning it into something i am NOT saying.

I am saying that the church is choosing to make a big PUBLIC deal out of something, when they aren't showing love in the basics as a whole.

I'm not saying that the words in the document express hate, i'm saying that the act of creating this document is a poor choice, poor timing, and based in a culture of christian arrogance and hate.

I'm saying stop looking at the words within this document, and think about WHY it was created and what that says to a broken and hurting world.

Also:

Paul was speaking TO believers. Believers who knew him, or at least the leadership knew him! He wasn't making a declaration to those who didn't know Jesus.

When Jesus told people "go and sin no more" it was always AFTER forgiveness and healing had already been freely given.

And hey, can we also acknowledge the fact that this document is attempting to add to the christian creed? That's the purpose of article 10 - all christians must believe this, and disagreeing is not an option.

I'm sorry, but why is our generation so arrogant to think we can add to what the requirements of being called "christian" are?

I believe the Apostles Creed is just fine on its own as a basis for all believers.
Can you show me any place where the authors of this document state WHY they wrote it? HERE is what one of the signers says.

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The “Nashville Statement,” like many other doctrinal declarations common to Christian history, seeks to summarize, clarify, and affirm what Holy Scripture reveals. In this case, we find ourselves clarifying what no previous generation of Christians has been called upon to clarify. We must now clarify and specify what the Bible teaches about human sexuality, marriage, and what it means to be made male and female.
As far as adding to the requirements of being a Christian, are you suggesting that living a life of holiness is not part of that? I agree that we can come to Christ just as we are but if we continue to live in our sin (regardless of the nature) and don't let the Holy Spirit transform us...well...what does that say? Part of being a Christian is repenting of sinful thoughts and actions and stopping them. That isn't limited to sexual sins and I don't believe anyone is suggesting that.
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Unread 09-04-2017, 08:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Becky

1) I am saying that the church is choosing to make a big PUBLIC deal out of something, when they aren't showing love in the basics as a whole. I'm not saying that the words in the document express hate, i'm saying that the act of creating this document is a poor choice, poor timing, and based in a culture of christian arrogance and hate. I'm saying stop looking at the words within this document, and think about WHY it was created and what that says to a broken and hurting world.

2) And hey, can we also acknowledge the fact that this document is attempting to add to the christian creed? That's the purpose of article 10 - all christians must believe this, and disagreeing is not an option. I'm sorry, but why is our generation so arrogant to think we can add to what the requirements of being called "christian" are? I believe the Apostles Creed is just fine on its own as a basis for all believers.
On my phone so excuse the sloppy formatting.

1) I assume (and we all know what assumptions do) is that this was written because what Christianity believes about sexuality is shifting. The Christian idea of sexuality of thirty years ago is changing and Christians once called certain actions as sin are now welcoming it into every stage of the church and calling it normal and acceptable. This was written to take a stance in the shifting culture. The wrong is now being called right.

2) If anything I see this as a stance for the traditional views of the church. I think that there are some in this age that are arrogant and will tell others they are not a Christian because they believe in sexual purity. While you may think that the creeds as they have been are fine, there are others that seem bent on destroying traditional Christian values in the name of love and acceptance. It seems like both sides are trying to find their footing to oust the other.
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Unread 09-04-2017, 09:02 AM   #34
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On my phone so excuse the sloppy formatting.

1) I assume (and we all know what assumptions do) is that this was written because what Christianity believes about sexuality is shifting. The Christian idea of sexuality of thirty years ago is changing and Christians once called certain actions as sin are now welcoming it into every stage of the church and calling it normal and acceptable. This was written to take a stance in the shifting culture. The wrong is now being called right.

2) If anything I see this as a stance for the traditional views of the church. I think that there are some in this age that are arrogant and will tell others they are not a Christian because they believe in sexual purity. While you may think that the creeds as they have been are fine, there are others that seem bent on destroying traditional Christian values in the name of love and acceptance. It seems like both sides are trying to find their footing to oust the other.
I agree with both of these statements.
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Unread 09-04-2017, 09:03 AM   #35
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Are you saying you don't live in any habitual sins? You can't even imagine that you might be wrong about things being sins, that you do all the time and think are just fine? You can't even fathom that some of them might be sinful?

Since when does the power of God heal our brokenness so completely, that we are free from all addictions and sinful behaviors and feelings and beliefs?

Human experience just doesn't back this up. That is what I mean by Christian arrogance. Until God slaps you in the face with your own habitual sins, you can't see your hypocrisy.

Get your nose out of semantics and scriptural arguments, and take a look at the world you are living in, and the real people in front of you. Do you have friends who are gay or transgender? Are you friends with women who have been abused by Christian husbands? Women who have been verbally abused by churches for being strong and independent, and being married to weak and passive husbands. People just assume a woman like that MADE her husband weak. But that's a lie they tell themselves to justify tossing hurtful and hateful words to her. Have you been friends with a transgender individual, who has been tossed out of their church for expressing their feelings and disphoria? Have you had long conversations with them about how they felt, how they feel now, and what their experience is like?

This is like... standing infront of abortion clinics with signs, while throwing insults at women in the church who are pregnant, and speaking harshly about their infidelity. We push people to believe that getting pregnant outside of marriage is shameful, so to hide their shame they go get an abortion... and then we hold that over their head for the rest of their lives. If we had just shown love and grace to the women who was pregnant, and she felt she was safe, and would be HELPED TO PROVIDE FOR THE CHILD, and be able to raise the child in a community WITHOUT SHAME, then maybe, just maybe we'd see a drop in abortion.

Let's talk about real life, real experiences, real people. Let's talk about what God is really doing, and how God actually interacts with us and with those around us.

I can argue this while quoting scripture, but I'm trying to ask you to take your head out of words for a moment, and face what is here in the real world. You SHOULD care what hurting people feel when they see this. You SHOULD care that homosexuals and transgendered LITERALLY get beaten up, tossed out, and MURDERED for who they are. And yet we think it is important to turn around and make these kind of statements to "protect our faith from being misunderstood". ? I don't want to get trapped into a conversation over semantics, I want to get into a conversation about real people, who really need us.

Why are homosexuals more likely then any other youth to become homeless at 16-17 years old?

Reality, not semantics, real people, who are really hurting. And THIS is what the church decides the right response is.

don't tell me this is what love means.
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Unread 09-04-2017, 09:12 AM   #36
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Are you saying you don't live in any habitual sins? You can't even imagine that you might be wrong about things being sins, that you do all the time and think are just fine? You can't even fathom that some of them might be sinful?

Since when does the power of God heal our brokenness so completely, that we are free from all addictions and sinful behaviors and feelings and beliefs?

Human experience just doesn't back this up. That is what I mean by Christian arrogance. Until God slaps you in the face with your own habitual sins, you can't see your hypocrisy.

Get your nose out of semantics and scriptural arguments, and take a look at the world you are living in, and the real people in front of you. Do you have friends who are gay or transgender? Are you friends with women who have been abused by Christian husbands? Women who have been verbally abused by churches for being strong and independent, and being married to weak and passive husbands. People just assume a woman like that MADE her husband weak. But that's a lie they tell themselves to justify tossing hurtful and hateful words to her. Have you been friends with a transgender individual, who has been tossed out of their church for expressing their feelings and disphoria? Have you had long conversations with them about how they felt, how they feel now, and what their experience is like?

This is like... standing infront of abortion clinics with signs, while throwing insults at women in the church who are pregnant, and speaking harshly about their infidelity. We push people to believe that getting pregnant outside of marriage is shameful, so to hide their shame they go get an abortion... and then we hold that over their head for the rest of their lives. If we had just shown love and grace to the women who was pregnant, and she felt she was safe, and would be HELPED TO PROVIDE FOR THE CHILD, and be able to raise the child in a community WITHOUT SHAME, then maybe, just maybe we'd see a drop in abortion.

Let's talk about real life, real experiences, real people. Let's talk about what God is really doing, and how God actually interacts with us and with those around us.

I can argue this while quoting scripture, but I'm trying to ask you to take your head out of words for a moment, and face what is here in the real world. You SHOULD care what hurting people feel when they see this. You SHOULD care that homosexuals and transgendered LITERALLY get beaten up, tossed out, and MURDERED for who they are. And yet we think it is important to turn around and make these kind of statements to "protect our faith from being misunderstood". ? I don't want to get trapped into a conversation over semantics, I want to get into a conversation about real people, who really need us.

Why are homosexuals more likely then any other youth to become homeless at 16-17 years old?

Reality, not semantics, real people, who are really hurting. And THIS is what the church decides the right response is.

don't tell me this is what love means.

Dealing with habitual sin in your life and denying you sinful behavior is sin are two different issues. There are things I struggle with. I confess them. I don't deny they are sin. That is one of the differences we sometimes face when addressing this issue.

Where have I once said that I don't care? That is an awfully big assumption for you to be making. You cannot give people real hope if you allow them to willfully live in a sinful situation without acknowledging the sin. That goes for EVERY sin. I wouldn't tell an alcoholic or drug addict that it's okay. I wouldn't tell a child molester it's okay. I would tell an adulterer or a liar or a thief that it's okay to keep doing those things. What is the difference?
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Unread 09-04-2017, 09:19 AM   #37
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I'm going to bow out for a little bit, but I wanted to clarify something.

While I do not have close friends who are a homosexual, I do have acquaintances. Actually, probably a little more than that. I have been invited to their home and shared a meal with them and others. To say that I don't love them would be preposterous, but they know that I do not agree with the life they live.
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Unread 09-04-2017, 09:28 AM   #38
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Dealing with habitual sin in your life and denying you sinful behavior is sin are two different issues. There are things I struggle with. I confess them. I don't deny they are sin. That is one of the differences we sometimes face when addressing this issue.

Where have I once said that I don't care? That is an awfully big assumption for you to be making. You cannot give people real hope if you allow them to willfully live in a sinful situation without acknowledging the sin. That goes for EVERY sin. I wouldn't tell an alcoholic or drug addict that it's okay. I wouldn't tell a child molester it's okay. I would tell an adulterer or a liar or a thief that it's okay to keep doing those things. What is the difference?
Have you ever met a heroin addict? Have you worked with them? walked along side them? It's not easy. That's part of my job, and what I teach my staff, what research in the field of ending Chronic Homelessness suggests, is that telling people they are doing something wrong doesn't help. Ever. It doesn't prevent, it doesn't decrease the likelihood of use, it does nothing.

You know what does help? Jesus's approach. Loving them just as they are, and giving them the help and support they need, so if they do decide ON THEIR OWN, to quit, they are confident that you're still going to be there to help them.

A couple years ago I had a client attempt to quit alcohol addiction cold turkey. He knew it was wrong and wanted to stop. He died. He went into a seizure from alcohol withdraw and died.
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Unread 09-04-2017, 09:40 AM   #39
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Have you ever met a heroin addict? Have you worked with them? walked along side them? It's not easy. That's part of my job, and what I teach my staff, what research in the field of ending Chronic Homelessness suggests, is that telling people they are doing something wrong doesn't help. Ever. It doesn't prevent, it doesn't decrease the likelihood of use, it does nothing.

You know what does help? Jesus's approach. Loving them just as they are, and giving them the help and support they need, so if they do decide ON THEIR OWN, to quit, they are confident that you're still going to be there to help them.

A couple years ago I had a client attempt to quit alcohol addiction cold turkey. He knew it was wrong and wanted to stop. He died. He went into a seizure from alcohol withdraw and died.
Yes. I have. I volunteer at a live in drug rehab center.

Jesus did love people and walked alongside them and he told them to sin no more.

I have personally watched people self-destruct and kill themselves. One of the guys in the facility I volunteer at decided he could do it on his own and dropped out in spite of those who tried to help. He OD'ed not long after.

I know alcoholics. I know drug addicts. I know people who are LGBT. I know porn addicts. I know liars. I even know a murderer. I have never once claimed superiority over any of them. I, like Paul, believe that I am a chief of sinners. I do my best to give grace and love but I don't think you can sacrifice the truth in the process.
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Unread 09-04-2017, 09:46 AM   #40
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Yes. I have. I volunteer at a live in drug rehab center.

Jesus did love people and walked alongside them and he told them to sin no more.

I have personally watched people self-destruct and kill themselves. One of the guys in the facility I volunteer at decided he could do it on his own and dropped out in spite of those who tried to help. He OD'ed not long after.

I know alcoholics. I know drug addicts. I know people who are LGBT. I know porn addicts. I know liars. I even know a murderer. I have never once claimed superiority over any of them. I, like Paul, believe that I am a chief of sinners. I do my best to give grace and love but I don't think you can sacrifice the truth in the process.
Wait, you've seen people die from your approach, and you still think its okay?
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Unread 09-04-2017, 09:50 AM   #41
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Wait, you've seen people die from your approach, and you still think its okay?
What approach are you talking about?

Based upon this statement I take it your approach has a 100% success rate. You never lose anyone with "your" approach?
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Unread 09-04-2017, 10:02 AM   #42
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I realize I'm rusty with debate - I've been focused on showing love and acceptance to those around me, and have been rather disassociated/disconnected with other believers for the past 3 years (if you care to know why, feel free to ask)... so let me take some time to collect my thoughts and try this again.

In the mean time, I'm stealing this from Tony's blog... it's a well worded, well thought out response, and I think it expresses what I'm trying to say in a very clear way.

https://www.prestonsprinkle.com/blog...ille-statement
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Unread 09-04-2017, 11:29 AM   #43
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I think something that isn't being considered by a lot of its opponents is the purpose of the statement; what it is and isn't intended to be. Maybe my understanding is flawed, but everything I have seen indicates that this is meant to be a clarifying statement of belief and an encouragement to churches to maintain a biblical worldview. It doesn't replace scripture, it's meant to clarify what the authors and signers believe scripture says. I wouldn't expect it to have the same nuance that I may have when talking to a gay friend, or that I may want my pastor to have when preaching a sermon on the issue. The way I read it, there is still room for those nuances and for each of us to work out how we think we should interact with the world in light of these beliefs. I don't think the statement is intended to be a full and complete picture of what we believe about sexual immorality and how to deal with it and how to interact with others who are outside of it.

[...]

One thing I do wish is that the preamble would have addressed, even briefly, is the mistreatement of the LGBT community by Christians. I think the Evangelical Church is making a lot of progress in that area, but for a lot of people outside of that community they may not have seen or experienced that. To add to that, there are Christians who will misuse this statement and who will use it to shame and bully others. For those who agree with this statement, I think we need to be really careful that we speak out against those who use this as a way to bully or ridicule. There is always a balance to be struck between grace and truth. I hope this opens up conversations that can address some of the things the statement lacked, like exactly how the gospel is hope for those caught up in their sin, and how to love those who need that hope rather than marginalize them. This would be a great opportunity for some of the leaders who signed this statement to put out some articles or blogs or videos or whatever speaking to some of the questions and concerns that are coming up.

Obviously none of my ramblings are very theological, and I am probably being overly idealistic, but that's just some stuff that has been floating around in my brain as I've digested the whole thing and read some other articles and whatnot. I'm sure it's imperfect, so bear with me.
This was a million posts ago but I think it's worth bringing back at this point because it's kind of to the same point I think we're debating here.

I can't read the minds of the authors here, but it seems like the primary, intended audience is evangelical people, as a reaffirmation of these faith leaders' positions in the face of a changing culture. I can't be the judge of whether or not that's necessary within the church at this time.

The thing that bothers me is the unintended audience who also receives it: the LGBT community, as well as their straight allies outside the church. If you're not involved within the Christian community, a restatement of faith, bound up as this one is in very academic language, may seem perplexing. Why is this necessary? Why did they issue this? Why now? What are they even trying to say here? Are they talking to me?

Mara's right - a lot of LGBT people have been mistreated by Christians throughout their lives. I completely understand why that would make them skeptical of the church and uninterested in Christianity, especially if they know enough about the faith to know that love and forgiveness are supposed to be defining traits. I imagine seeing this document may strike a lot of LGBT people as "oh, cool, Christians are still going out of their way to be mean to us; they didn't have to issue this statement, but they did anyway, just because."

Even though LGBT people have made significant progress in getting legal protections in recent years, and now enjoy a greater amount of social acceptance than they did not so long ago, they still face a lot of discrimination, hatred, and violence, simply because of who they are and who they are attracted to. It appears the people who wrote this document believe that that shifting social landscape makes this the time to issue a statement clarifying their stance about what the Bible says is the appropriate attitude toward LGBT issues. Maybe that's true. But I also imagine that to the LGBT community, it comes across as "well, after decades, we're finally getting treated with more respect in society, even if I'm still afraid to hold hands with my partner in public sometimes, but churches are still making a point of reminding us that we're broken and should not be accepted." (Don't ask me to cite to the specific passage that says this - I'm not saying that the statement literally says that LGBT people should not be accepted. I'm saying that by issuing statements like this on this specific issue, against a group of people who have already been hurt by the church, that this is likely how it is to be perceived.)

That was scattered, so I guess my point is this. LGBT people have been hurt by the church, and I think it's perfectly understandable for them to be skeptical about Christianity because of it. By issuing statements that focus so much on this one particular area, adding statements that indicate that all of Christianity must be united on this without room for disagreement (see Article 10), and divorcing these statements from the promise of hope and redemption in Christ... why would any LGBT person want to come to church?
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Unread 09-04-2017, 11:38 AM   #44
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This is a simple question that we have to ask that applies to ALL sins. At what point do we (the Church) address them? I realize that there are WAY TOO MANY "Christians" who use judgmental and hateful methods and they only hurt the body of Christ. However, we can't just stop addressing sin can we? I'm just curious as to how you all think we should do that. I am asking sincerely because I wonder what's the most effective way to do so. I don't think it's avoiding the topic of sin. I deal with this in my every day life at work (Walmart and the church) so it's not just an academic exercise for me.
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Unread 09-04-2017, 06:53 PM   #45
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This is a simple question that we have to ask that applies to ALL sins. At what point do we (the Church) address them? I realize that there are WAY TOO MANY "Christians" who use judgmental and hateful methods and they only hurt the body of Christ. However, we can't just stop addressing sin can we? I'm just curious as to how you all think we should do that. I am asking sincerely because I wonder what's the most effective way to do so. I don't think it's avoiding the topic of sin. I deal with this in my every day life at work (Walmart and the church) so it's not just an academic exercise for me.
I've been following the discussion on the mobile app so won't post a full response till I have time but I thought I would play devil's advocate here.

I have enough on my plate dealing with my own sins to worry about telling other people how to deal with theirs. That's not my job anyways. My job is to point people to Jesus and tell them how He has changed me.

As for the history of statements like this I think Evangelicals have a lot to learn from the RCC. They have a longer history of interpreting Scripture in cross-cultural contexts and their statements on difficult subjects like this tend to be a lot more nuanced and thought out than this statement.
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