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Unread 08-28-2017, 07:43 AM   #1
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Antifa attack peaceful right wing demonstrators in Berkeley

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ccfc6d5b05ae

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Unread 08-28-2017, 08:35 AM   #2
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The narrative sure changes when you can't just screech the word Nazi over and over doesn't it?
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Unread 08-28-2017, 08:37 AM   #3
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Well, the right-wingers didn't have a permit, so they deserved it. (Kidding, but this excise was used regarding Charlottesville, unfortunately!)

This collection of videos and commentary is interesting in what it reveals. Some of the violence was unfrotunate, and thankfully some other counter-protestors stopped some of it (evidenced in videos).

Things are def reaching a boiling point, and I wont be surprised to see more violence. Charlottesville and other right wing violence has intensified and has been remarkably effective in recruiting more to broadly antifa efforts, as well as broadly peaceful campaigns of resistance (which, this counter-protest seems to have overwhelmingly composed of).

Antifa, as loosely anarchist, feels emboldened regarding strategy, as well, because of the remarkable ineffectiveness of police forces in curbing violence, broadly, but also because of examples of police forces taking the side of white nationalist violence, and also brutally attacking peaceful protestors in the past few years (think of the Dakota pipeline protests; ive seen videos of peaceful protestors being deluged with rubber bullets and non-lethal grenades). What was interesting is the use of shields to protect the peaceful crowds.

Antifa has, unfortunately, been necessary for keeping peaceful protestors from being killed or maimed by white nationalists (just look up the many testimonies from clergy and other non-violent protestors who were literally saved by antifa from being brutally beaten), and here we see them turning their defensive strategy toward police.

I'm much more sympathetic to the counter-protestors. But, violent strategies are stupid and are going to bring down some heavy retaliations, and likely will result in a spiral of violence. The aftermath of Charlottesville has been a great show of solidarity by, largely peaceful, anti-white nationalists. It has shown definitively that no one wants them or their disgusting ideology. And it has shown that, despite the strong violent hyper-masculine show they put on in Charlottesville, they can be matched both in strategy and numbers by ant-fascists.

But, continued force by antifa will only help in recruitment efforts for white nationalists.

If antifa wants to continue, they should adopt a *purely* defensive attitude, preserving the lives of non-violent protestors from police and white nationalists, not exacerbating volatile situations.


Ok, now is my time to get flamed by everyone on here, haha.
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Unread 08-28-2017, 09:39 AM   #4
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Haven't had a chance to read this particular article yet, but as a Berkeley resident, my understanding is that it went more like this:

1. Neo-Nazis threatened to show up to the right-wing "anti-Marxist" gathering scheduled in Berkeley.
2. Out of concern from the last few demonstrations that went ugly, Berkeley PD and University of California campus police put up a lot of barriers intended to keep everyone safe; a lot of people thought it was excessive and damaged their right to safe, peaceful counter-protest.
3. The organizer of the right-wing event cancelled it and told people not to show up.
4. The entire city of Berkeley put up 20,000 Berkeley Stands United Against Hate posters all over town at the mayor's urging.
5. A handful of right-wing demonstrators showed up despite the event being cancelled.
6. 50-100 antifas showed up, were belligerent; some were arrested.
7. Several hundred peaceful left-wing demonstrators were also present and were probably in as much danger from the antifas as anyone.


I just stayed away from that part of town yesterday.
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Unread 08-28-2017, 12:20 PM   #5
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I don't have time to digest this and make a very in-depth comment...

First, just an observation. Trump said something like "there's blame on both sides" which admittedly was a dumb thing to say at the time....BUT IT'S TRUE. We had a thread that went on for ever here commenting on the right wing violence and most of the comments were to the effect that pointing out any blame on the left was so offensive and out of line. The first two substantial comments here? It's the rights fault.

The second thing I'd like to say is WE are not that divided. I don't hate anyone because of where they're from, who they worship, what political party they're from.... actually, I don't hate anyone at all. But I'll leave you with this image from Houston.

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Unread 08-28-2017, 02:02 PM   #6
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I don't agree that my post was saying it was simply 'the right's fault.'

I admitted where my sympathies lay, and I tried to be as nuanced as I could. I noted the importance of not giving into violence, and I mentioned that I think that antifa's violence is, unless defensive, definitively wrong.

And, I tried to, as well, nuance this to the effect that I wasn't simply speaking of the 'right' or even Trump supporters. Maybe I should have been clearer, but I tried to point to white nationalism (here, incorporating neo-Nazis, KKK, and some alt-righters).
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Unread 08-28-2017, 03:23 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Uptown Thrunk View Post
I don't agree that my post was saying it was simply 'the right's fault.'

I admitted where my sympathies lay, and I tried to be as nuanced as I could. I noted the importance of not giving into violence, and I mentioned that I think that antifa's violence is, unless defensive, definitively wrong.

And, I tried to, as well, nuance this to the effect that I wasn't simply speaking of the 'right' or even Trump supporters. Maybe I should have been clearer, but I tried to point to white nationalism (here, incorporating neo-Nazis, KKK, and some alt-righters).
For the most part....fair enough. Still take issues with some of your assertions, but as I said, 90% of us are more united than divided and I'm not going to waste our time nit picking further.
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Unread 08-28-2017, 06:27 PM   #8
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"peaceful right-wing demonstrators"



So, the actions the demonstrators themselves might be engaging in might be overtly peaceful, but the ideology and the government policies for which they are demonstrating are inherently violent. That's why "peaceful right-wing demonstrator" is an oxymoron.
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Originally Posted by Uptown Thrunk
If antifa wants to continue, they should adopt a *purely* defensive attitude, preserving the lives of non-violent protestors from police and white nationalists, not exacerbating volatile situations.
This is still going to get them called violent extremists, though. They can't win.
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Unread 08-28-2017, 06:31 PM   #9
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"peaceful right-wing demonstrators"

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Unread 08-28-2017, 06:39 PM   #10
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Of course you don't.

Supporting right-wing ideologies of the sort embodied by Trump, who emboldens racists, is inherently violent. It might not be physically violent, but it's hateful, which is only a step away from violence.

A 'peaceful right-wing demonstrator', when what they're demonstrating for is more of the same xenophobia and racism that has been emboldened by the Trump administration, is an oxymoron.

Basically, I don't think it's possible to demonstrate peacefully for an ideology that preaches hatred.
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Unread 08-28-2017, 08:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IsaactheSyrian View Post
Of course you don't.

Supporting right-wing ideologies of the sort embodied by Trump, who emboldens racists, is inherently violent. It might not be physically violent, but it's hateful, which is only a step away from violence.

A 'peaceful right-wing demonstrator', when what they're demonstrating for is more of the same xenophobia and racism that has been emboldened by the Trump administration, is an oxymoron.

Basically, I don't think it's possible to demonstrate peacefully for an ideology that preaches hatred.
how do you decide which "right-wing ideologies" are violent? genuinely curious as I don't want to violate anybody by having them punch me in the face for peacefully supporting an idea.
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Unread 08-28-2017, 10:43 PM   #12
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how do you decide which "right-wing ideologies" are violent? genuinely curious as I don't want to violate anybody by having them punch me in the face for peacefully supporting an idea.
Ones which encourage hate and suspicion of minorities, for starters. There's no such thing as 'peacefully supporting' an idea such as the sort that the alt-Right and Donald Trump's immigration policies engender, because those ideas are inherently violent.
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Unread 08-29-2017, 07:58 AM   #13
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I am what most would consider "right-wing" in many areas.

Are you suggesting that I am somehow racist and/or violent?
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Unread 08-29-2017, 08:02 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
I am what most would consider "right-wing" in many areas.

Are you suggesting that I am somehow racist and/or violent?
Well, you arent a white nationalist, are you? I think that is mainly what Isaac is talking about, but i could be mistaken.
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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Unread 08-29-2017, 08:16 AM   #15
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Well, you arent a white nationalist, are you? I think that is mainly what Isaac is talking about, but i could be mistaken.
That's why folks should be careful about throwing out labels like "right-wing" and "left-wing" in these types of conversations. I know that "alt-right" was specifically mentioned so I think I know what he means. However, if I were to organize a Pro-Life rally couldn't it be considered a peaceful right-wing demonstration? I'm sure that there are some who would disagree.
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