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Unread 08-22-2017, 02:19 PM   #46
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So, what I am hearing is that there is nothing at all relating them to any political movement. So is calling them the "far right" simply propaganda to associate them with the Republican party?
it may be propaganda by some (and i am of the opinion that it IS propaganda by some) but for others it may simply be a case of categorization--you are emphatically not this, therefore you must be that. it's a very black and white way of categorizing, no pun intended--there is simply no room for shades of gray in this way of thinking.

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Unread 08-22-2017, 02:23 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by tlj009 View Post
So, what I am hearing is that there is nothing at all relating them to any political movement. So is calling them the "far right" simply propaganda to associate them with the Republican party?
I hate going to Wikipedia, but this may be helpful:

"Far-right politics includes but is not limited to aspects of authoritarianism, anti-communism, and nativism.[9] Claims that superior people should have greater rights than inferior people are sometimes associated with the far right.[10] The far right has historically favoured an elitist society based on its belief in the legitimacy of the rule of a supposed superior minority over the inferior masses.[11] However, right-wing populist ideologies which are described by some commentators as "far-right" often use appeals to the "common man" as opposed to the appeals of the elites.[3] Far-right politics sometimes involves anti-immigration and anti-integration stances towards groups that are deemed inferior and undesirable.[12] Concerning the socio-cultural dimension of nationality, culture and migration, one far-right position is the view that certain ethnic, racial or religious groups should stay separate, and it is based on the belief that the interests of one's own group should be prioritised.[13]
Some aspects of fascist ideology have been identified with right wing political parties; in particular, the fascist idea that superior persons should dominate society while undesirable elements should be purged, which in the case of Nazism resulted in genocide.[14] Charles Grant, director of the Centre for European Reform in London, has distinguished between right-wing nationalist parties which are often described as "far-right", such as the National Front in France, and fascism.[4]"

Far-Right Politics


I don't think one has to make the connection between the 'far right' and the Republican Party, but it cannot be missed that there are similar political ideals, though difference in quality and extremity. Anti-immigration, anti-communism, a strong sense of nationalism and priority for one's own group. But, it is easy to name a stance in the abstract and funnel various, diverse groups together.

But, at the same time, I don't think anyone would have associated skinheads from California with the Republican Party; a few years ago, those skinhead types from California were the ones that came to mind when I thought of Neo-Nazis, and it seemed fairly clear to me that they are nothing like most on the political right.

It seems that recently the associations are easier to make because of the rallies and the fact that many in the alt-right come from Republican backgrounds, or still consider themselves Republicans. Obviously alt-right=/=Nazi. But, again, association is a hard thing to brush aside. Distinctions become difficult to make.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 02:27 PM   #48
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So, what I am hearing is that there is nothing at all relating them to any political movement. So is calling them the "far right" simply propaganda to associate them with the Republican party?
I think yes and no. I think some republican issues offer some racist some cover. They can deny they're racist but use issues like English as an official language, immigration reform, voter ID, etc. to speak out. They can twist those ideas to further their agendas. So in that sense there is something relating them to the right. But I also think it's a brilliant strategy by the democrats to associate all racist with the republican party and all republicans to the racist. So yeah... great propaganda.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 03:00 PM   #49
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They have done a good job with it. Being in Louisiana, it always appeared that the kkk was largely Democrats. Maybe because the ones that I know of were all older and maybe there have been some changes but it seemed a little odd to me for them to be tied to Republicans.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 03:11 PM   #50
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They have done a good job with it. Being in Louisiana, it always appeared that the kkk was largely Democrats. Maybe because the ones that I know of were all older and maybe there have been some changes but it seemed a little odd to me for them to be tied to Republicans.
This is a total aside, but I'm curious about what part of La you're from and how much racism you see? I spend a good deal of time in St. Mary, Terrebone, and Lafourche parishes and honestly....racism is alive and well there. Where I live in Texas...where I'm from in Oregon.... I've never actually encountered racism, but in Louisiana? Yep. I also work with a guy from Mississippi who is horrible.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 03:33 PM   #51
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There are some but for the most part it is a lot of talk. I know some very racists people from the way that they talk. But they like and respect the blacks that they work with. But if you question them it is more the stereotype that they dislike so intensely. The lazy bum on welfare or the thug down the street. Unfortunally, there are a lot that live up to the stereotypes. But while they are racists, there is a certain amount of equal oprtunity in that they talk terrible about the whites on welfare and the white drug heads too. I really cant think of a fight that I can place on the shoulders of racism. It has always been more along the lines of, I dont like you and I know that it will make you mad. Now the 70 and 80s were a little different but that is what I see now.

On the other side of it, the blacks that I work with and like have a us vs them mentality. But most of the people that I work with are fine people. Everyone works well together. But they do like to stay seperate in a lot of areas. For example, interracial couples don't seem to be readily accepted by either side. There are definite sides. But the sides aren't usually hostile or violent. They are just different.

I am in North Louisiana.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 05:29 PM   #52
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They're pushing things that the regular Right aren't willing to say.
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Can you explain what you mean by this?
Sure.

So it seems to me that the sentiments behind regular right-wing discourse that I've seen in the US would like to basically round up immigrants and send them back to their countries of origin, or at the very least put severe curtailments on immigration, even on people that are benefits to society or that desperately need resettlement on humanitarian grounds. That was basically what Trump's ban from those several countries in the Middle East (the so-called 'Muslim ban') accomplished.

I think the alt-right are a manifestation of a more extreme form of the same discourse, based on the same values. And I also think that they're pushing the Overton Window further to the right, so that extremist Rightists who might be reticent to let their racist values show can be more free to do so. Trump has already made this surge in the alt-right possible, and now the alt-right's visibility is emboldening other racists.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 07:22 PM   #53
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@IsaactheSyrian you continue to make statements with verbiage like: the sentiments behind regular right-wing. How are you determining what the sentiment behind regular right wing is? Is it what you see on the news? If so I would say that what you're seeing is probably not the sentiment of the regular right wing. Most news sources only show the extremes in both directions and try and sell it as the "fair and balanced".

And speaking of the regular right wing...how about the regular left?

So Black Lives Matter protest have had people chanting "pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon" and "what do we want? dead cops..when do we want it? now". Is it fair to say most on the left feel this way but just don't have the balls to say it? I sure hope not. Recently a black democrat state legislator said she hoped Trump would get assassinated. Would it be fair to say most black people or most democrats feel this way but only say it in secret? Again, I sure as heck hope not.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 07:45 PM   #54
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JThomas, what kind of racism have you seen in Louisiana? Can you give some examples? I ask because I may very well see the same things and see them differently.

I know especially after Katrina the news painted the state as racist but I really dont believe that to be the case. I know especially in that case alot of what was being said really didnt reflect reality.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 08:03 PM   #55
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JThomas, what kind of racism have you seen in Louisiana? Can you give some examples? I ask because I may very well see the same things and see them differently.

I know especially after Katrina the news painted the state as racist but I really dont believe that to be the case. I know especially in that case alot of what was being said really didnt reflect reality.
I would break it down into two categories: Current racial sentiment and evidence of past (but not too distant) "institutional" racism.

As to the first category I would just say that in groups of only white people I hear guys in Louisiana say things that I don't think guys in most of the rest of the country are comfortable saying. They're not usually hateful things, and they're largely related to (as you say), stereotypes. I know guys that just overly generalize and aren't shy talking about it.

As to the second category. I work in the offshore oil industry. Our company runs supply vessels that service the offshore rigs. I've been doing it twelve years. In those years I would say the amount of captains and chief engineers that are black compared to white are not equivalent to the amount of deckhand and engine room helpers that are black as compared to those who are white. In other words, it doesn't seem that the black guys entering the industry have risen to the top at the same rate as the white guys. Our shore side support personnel and management is mostly ex vessel personnel and they are mostly white as well. It takes 10+ years for most guys to go from entry level to captain or chief and even longer to make it into shore side management so admittedly what I am seeing here is evidence of past racism, but I still see a slight discrepancy in the rate of advancement.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 08:51 PM   #56
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So Black Lives Matter protest have had people chanting "pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon" and "what do we want? dead cops..when do we want it? now". Is it fair to say most on the left feel this way but just don't have the balls to say it? I sure hope not. Recently a black democrat state legislator said she hoped Trump would get assassinated. Would it be fair to say most black people or most democrats feel this way but only say it in secret? Again, I sure as heck hope not.
If you lived your life under regular threat of being shot dead by police at a traffic stop (which is more likely to happen because of your race), you'd probably be pretty angry at cops too.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 09:03 PM   #57
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The problem is that the rest of the nation doesnt grow up in Louisiana. There are places in Dallas and Houston that white people cant go. Every town in Louisiana with a population of over 5000 has neighborhoods that white people arent allowed. Taking players home after football practice we had to drop them off sometimes 3 miles away because we couldnt go to their neighborhoods. In college, I was stopped by police and told to leave a neighborhood. As an adult, everyone knows to plan work in certain areas before noon because they get dangerous.

I have black coworkers who have told me why they had to get out. Drugs and violence are everywhere. All these neighborhoods are black neighborhoods. Some fine people come from these places but even then it creates a different culture and so, there is usually still a seperation.

I am sure that past racism probably brought us to this point but this reality leads to the generalizations and stereotypes. It also leads to a lower percent receiving higher education and higher percent returning to poverty and crime. Some of the worst offenders that I know run their mouth have black friends who they like and respect.

What I dont see is the outright hatred that I attribute to racism.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 09:56 PM   #58
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The problem is that the rest of the nation doesnt grow up in Louisiana. There are places in Dallas and Houston that white people cant go. Every town in Louisiana with a population of over 5000 has neighborhoods that white people arent allowed. Taking players home after football practice we had to drop them off sometimes 3 miles away because we couldnt go to their neighborhoods. In college, I was stopped by police and told to leave a neighborhood. As an adult, everyone knows to plan work in certain areas before noon because they get dangerous.

I have black coworkers who have told me why they had to get out. Drugs and violence are everywhere. All these neighborhoods are black neighborhoods. Some fine people come from these places but even then it creates a different culture and so, there is usually still a seperation.

I am sure that past racism probably brought us to this point but this reality leads to the generalizations and stereotypes. It also leads to a lower percent receiving higher education and higher percent returning to poverty and crime. Some of the worst offenders that I know run their mouth have black friends who they like and respect.

What I dont see is the outright hatred that I attribute to racism.
That's all racism too dude, the KKK isnt the only form of racism, its just the most overt.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 10:00 PM   #59
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I fear the thread has moved on from this point, but this exchange got me thinking:

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Originally Posted by IsaactheSyrian View Post
They're pushing things that the regular Right aren't willing to say.
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@IsaactheSyrian

Let me say first that the your last post came across as measured and reasonable. The tone of this conversation seems to have taken a turn for the better. More productive.

I did want to address your last statement, "they're pushing things that the regular right aren't willing to say". I take a little offense to that part of your post. It suggests that the right shares their views but just aren't willing to voice them....like the vast majority of those on the right side of the aisle are closet racist. Speaking for myself and the majority of my friends and family who tend to lean right....WE ARE NOT RACIST, and do not agree with, sympathize with, or condone the actions of these people.
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Can you explain what you mean by this?
One point of communication breakdown I've noticed between conservative- and liberal-leaning people on issues of race is that we aren't always operating under the same definition of what "racism" is. It often sounds to me like people on the right expect that racism can be summed up in a simple binary question along the lines of "do you think white people are inherently better than non-white people?" And of course the vast majority of people, no matter their political alignment, answer that question with "no!", and quite emphatically. However, for many white people, especially on the right, that answer also leads to the conclusion "and therefore I am not racist."

When people on the left talk about personal racism, we're often thinking of it as a spectrum of beliefs, some of which are unconscious. They're caused by societal structures that have oppressed people of color, and in turn, those beliefs cause us to reinforce those social inequalities - it's a terrible self-fulfilling prophesy. This graph is far from perfect, but it's illustrative:



More legible version here, credit here.

Obviously we all agree that the stuff under "terrorism" and "overt racism" are horrible. The issue is all the stuff in the middle, from "subconscious racism" to "performative ally". Through a more left-wing view of racism, if you're white and hold those perspectives, you might be a little bit racist. This isn't some overarching, damning, irredeemable character flaw, nor is it the same as you being a white supremacist. Rather, this is something you picked up, probably without realizing it, from being a white person living in an unjust and unequal society. It's something you should be aware of, curious about educating yourself on, and gradually work towards reducing as you talk more with people of other races and learn more about their experiences. From a Christian perspective, it's also probably something to pray about and repent of.

This is what I tend to think of when I think about the extreme right-wing views possibly revealing things that more moderate right-wing people are not willing to say. Not that many right-wing people are secretly all the way at the white supremacist end of the graph, but that many of them are in the grey area, and possibly further towards racism than they might like to admit in polite company.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 11:11 PM   #60
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Taylor just hit the ball out of the park putting into words something that had been niggling at me in this thread.

Also, jthomas, from the sounds of it you don't 'lean right'. You're full-on, tipped over on your side to the right.
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