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Unread 08-19-2017, 11:07 PM   #31
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A few disjointed thoughts, having just skimmed the thread without reading anything in detail, so please don't take any of this as a direct response to anyone:

I'm extremely white, so I don't know what the actions in Charlottesville look like to you if you're a person of color, or if you're Jewish. But I try to be a generally compassionate person who does care about people whose lives and experiences are different from mine.

I'm also a person who lives in Berkeley, and therefore has had to deal with antifas periodically over the last four years. In the past year, I've had to plan my commute and my grocery runs around demonstrations a few times, just in case, due to clashes between antifas and neo-Nazis. (By antifas I mean anti-fascists, sometimes anarchists, often clad in black with masks, often somewhat violent, and leftist in ideology, probably what Trump was referring to with "alt-left" the other day.)

The antifas have some good points about our political and economic system, and the role that race still plays in American society. I don't think their tactics are effective. They are destructive to property, they often show up with the intention of inciting violence, and they make otherwise peaceful protests look overwhelmingly bad. The old press adage that "if it bleeds, it leads" absolutely applies when the antifas show up, and it distorts the general public perception of demonstrations. When Milo Yiannopolous came to Berkeley in February, the demonstrations I saw on my streets did not look like the violence I saw on CNN.

It seems to me that these clashes lately involve four major groups:
1. Antifas
2. Left-leaning peaceful demonstrators
3. (Sometimes) Right-leaning peaceful demonstrators
4. Actual neo-Nazis

I know that the left-leaning peaceful demonstrators always outnumber the antifas in Berkeley, and from what I've heard, they sure did in Charlottesville too. I don't know about the right-leaning peaceful demonstrators, or if they outnumber the neo-Nazis. There probably are some of those that come out to Berkeley simply because they support Trump and want to be provocative, and there probably were some who were just really into statues of Robert E. Lee in Charlottesville. But if you are showing up to a rally to peacefully protest to keep a Confederate monument, and the other people on your side are literally using Nazi salutes and slogans, you need to think long and hard about why you're there and the company you keep.

Is there violence and hatred on "both sides"? Sure, I guess, in the same way that a swimming pool and the Pacific Ocean both contain "a lot of water." I'm done with false equivalencies. "Two sides to every story" does not mean that the truth is exactly halfway between the two versions of the story. "People were violent on both sides" does not mean that both sides are equally to blame. Anyone who has known a child who has defended themselves from a school bully, only to have both kids get detention for the fight, has a sense for this.

Saying "Nazis are bad" should be the easiest political slam-dunk any leader can make, and the president's flip-flopping and failure to unequivocally denounce white supremacist violence is repulsive.

I will say that people absolutely do have the right to freedom of speech. Congress shall make no law abridging it. Despite some misguided things I've seen politicans say lately (mostly on the left), hate speech is constitutionally protected. You have a right to be a white supremacist in this country, even though it's abhorrent. The US gives its citizens the right to fly a Nazi flag; Germany does not. But a few types of speech are not protected, and that includes speech which incites imminent lawless action, as well as inflammatory speech that is either injurious itself, or might cause the hearer to immediately retaliate or breach the peace (a.k.a. "fighting words"). Some of the things I've heard from "alt-right" demonstrators appear to cross that line to me, and that speech does not require constitutional protection. And of course, assault and battery are not considered "speech". But we also have to remember that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from all consequences of speech. I look forward to someday going an entire week without linking to this xkcd.

I know some of you all won't like this post, but I feel like I need to share it anyway. It's getting increasingly difficult to look any of my friends who are members of any marginalized community in the eye if I don't keep trying to share posts like this with my white friends. I feel like I'm not doing a good enough job to witness my faith to them if I am not doing what I can to stand up against hatred in this world.

Anyway. I don't advocate for violence. But I leave you with this photo of an alt-left agitator violently attacking a white supremacist.

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Unread 08-21-2017, 04:40 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by bravesfan007 View Post
What danger? Every news story you read will be biased for or against something. You cannot eliminate all bias. It comes out even in the best journalists.
To clarify my 'not two sides' statement: It's pretty clear that, for the most part, the Unite the Right protest was overwhelmingly populated by white nationalists, Neo-Nazis, KKK, and other similar groups. They were largely homogeneous, and besides reacting against the removal of a Robert E. Lee statue, this was meant to be a unifying event for various, diverse white supremacist groups (Saturday’s “Unite the Right” rally was meant to unify various white nationalist factions against unidentified enemies,Oakdale white supremacist at center of deadly clash in Charlottesville | The Modesto Bee ). If you've watched any footage, especially of the night before, you should be able to see that, overwhelmingly that the protesters weren't just usual right wing people, or Trump supporters: these were armed, militant people looking for a chance to not only spew hate, but also to incite violence. Again, please watch the Vice documentary, where leaders in this event were explicitly saying these sorts of things.




Contrasted with a largely homogeneous 'side' were counter-protesters made up of citizens, students, antifa, and clergy. While some antifa may have provoked, encouraged, or engaged in violence (as well as saving clergy from white nationalists, as Cornell West and other clergy have talked about), they are in no way representative of the diverse 'side'. There is no way that we can talk about this as two homogeneous sides. Counter-protesters were stratified and diverse, with many if not most engaging in non-violent protest.



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Call me a lunatic, but it does not sound like the Antifa movement is really against fascism. Wikipedia defines fascism as a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce, that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. This sounds like the Antifa movement based on the sources I have listed above.

But again, there are two sides to every story.
What? I'm not sure you understand antifa is you can claim that they are fascist. For one thing, it is a highly diverse, mostly anonymous movement that often advocates for anarchism.

In what way are they advocating for radical authoritarian nationalism? Dictatorial power? Control of industry and commerce?

Read the rest of the exact source you are using: 'Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum. . .Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation'

It should be quite obvious by now that antifa isn't in anyway 'fascist.'

At the most you could maybe say that they are enacting forcible suppression of opposition. But, that is hardly an overriding characteristic of fascism. If it was, then anything besides Mennonites or over non-violent religious movements would be non-fascist.
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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Unread 08-21-2017, 09:00 AM   #33
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What the “alt-left” was actually doing in Charlottesville.

I hope these terrifying eye-witness accounts further points what I've tried to show above.

The body count, thankfully, wasn't higher.... As one eyewitness said, 'white supremacism is violence'.
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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Unread 08-21-2017, 09:58 AM   #34
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What? I'm not sure you understand antifa is you can claim that they are fascist. For one thing, it is a highly diverse, mostly anonymous movement that often advocates for anarchism.

In what way are they advocating for radical authoritarian nationalism? Dictatorial power? Control of industry and commerce?

It should be quite obvious by now that antifa isn't in anyway 'fascist.'
I removed a lot of this to condense it. My problem is that a large portion of those that I have seen in the Antifa movement are against any differing opinion. As a result, if you agree with them then it is great and swell. If you disagree with them then, well, you're part of the problem and must be removed. This is attempting to stamp out any differing voices.

Again, I state that this is what I have seen of a lot of them. I recognize that is not all, but it appears to be a portion that is at least measurable in percentage terms.

As far as the Antifa standing to keep the Neo-Nazis out of the park, I am not sure why they thought it was a good idea. Yes, we all should stand against racism and white supremacy and whatever other term we want to assign to it, but to physically put yourself in the way of people who have a legal right to be in the park and not expect them to respond is stupid, especially when these people are armed and hold the opinions that they do.

I agree, that many are simply fueling the rhetoric of the far-right. I still assert my opinion that if they would have let those gather in the park without even showing up, it would have been mentioned on the news for three minutes and then forgotten.
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Unread 08-21-2017, 05:14 PM   #35
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Here is a timeline of events.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...=.90e4a5c6add7
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Unread 08-21-2017, 05:50 PM   #36
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Unfortunately, this requires a subscription to see.
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 07:21 AM   #37
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Unfortunately, this requires a subscription to see.
I was able to view it without any trouble.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 09:31 AM   #38
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Strange. I didn't have a problem viewing it.

It may be a silly question but I am wondering if someone could explain Nazi politics to me. They started in communist Germany. How did they become the far right, which is the other side of the spectrum? Wiki has the "National Socialism Movement" being the largest group in the US. And Consevatives have historically been the largest supporters of Israel. So how did a Communist and Socialist group become the far right? Shouldn't they have more in common with the left? Even a hot topic abortion and planned parenthood was started by the kkk and is solidly liberal. What are the Nazi's pushing that makes them the "alt-right"?
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Unread 08-22-2017, 10:46 AM   #39
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I was able to view it without any trouble.
If you view more than a handful of their articles then you have to have a subscription. It's rather common with sites with pull, these days.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 11:01 AM   #40
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Strange. I didn't have a problem viewing it.

It may be a silly question but I am wondering if someone could explain Nazi politics to me. They started in communist Germany. How did they become the far right, which is the other side of the spectrum? Wiki has the "National Socialism Movement" being the largest group in the US. And Consevatives have historically been the largest supporters of Israel. So how did a Communist and Socialist group become the far right? Shouldn't they have more in common with the left? Even a hot topic abortion and planned parenthood was started by the kkk and is solidly liberal. What are the Nazi's pushing that makes them the "alt-right"?
to be extremely general:

liberals are more publically viewed as pushing for social diversity and inclusion--incorporating all of the colors of the rainbow.

the opposite of liberal is conservative.

the opposite of all the colors is one color/no color, namely white.

nazis pushed the aryan race agenda.

neonazis push white supremacism.

therefore, one color = opposite of liberals = conservative = alt-right.

extremely reductive but hope this helps.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 11:25 AM   #41
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They started in communist Germany. How did they become the far right, which is the other side of the spectrum?
"Communist Germany" never existed. There was an entity that lasted just over a month called the Bavarian Soviet Republic ('Soviet' referring to a particular mode of governance involving small workers councils, which is what a soviet (сове́т)is - and not anything particularly Russian) that Hitler was involved with, but it was quickly reabsorbed into the Weimar Republic.

However, the Weimar Republic was in serious trouble economically and politically for reasons that are kind of tough to explain. There are some really good books on it. But basically, all that unrest and turmoil provided the perfect opportunity for someone like Hitler - a strong, charismatic leader - to rise to power.

Quote:
Wiki has the "National Socialism Movement" being the largest group in the US. And Consevatives have historically been the largest supporters of Israel.
Huh? Are you equating not being a Zionist with being a Nazi?

Gonna have to explain that to me, who am both anti-Zionist and anti-Nazi

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So how did a Communist and Socialist group become the far right? Shouldn't they have more in common with the left?
There are some commonalities between communism and fascism. For example, the control of industry by entities other than capitalists. But even here the ideologies are not the same - fascism would have the means of production in the hands of a strongman state, whereas communism, or at least Leninist communism, would have the means of production in the hands of decentralized workers communes (soviets).

Both ideologies tend to require a fair amount of government propaganda to function effectively.

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Even a hot topic abortion and planned parenthood was started by the kkk and is solidly liberal.
It's probably a bit of a misnomer to say that Planned Parenthood was started by the KKK. Margaret Sanger was active in the KKK, however. It's also worth noting that Planned Parenthood has been around since 1916, and didn't actually start offering abortions until much later - 1970, after Sanger had already died. Until that point they dealt in birth control methods only.

(But Sanger believed that controlling the black birthrate, and other undesirables, was a good thing )


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What are the Nazi's pushing that makes them the "alt-right"?
They're pushing things that the regular Right aren't willing to say.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 11:40 AM   #42
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to be extremely general:

liberals are more publically viewed as pushing for social diversity and inclusion--incorporating all of the colors of the rainbow.

the opposite of liberal is conservative.

the opposite of all the colors is one color/no color, namely white.

nazis pushed the aryan race agenda.

neonazis push white supremacism.

therefore, one color = opposite of liberals = conservative = alt-right.

extremely reductive but hope this helps.

That's pretty good. I don't think most conservatives have anything in common with the white supremacist, and I don't think white supremacist have much of an informed political view to align with anyone.

To say it in even a more manner.... the white supremacist says "there's more white people over here....and more colored people over there....... I'm standing over here with the white people".
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Unread 08-22-2017, 12:01 PM   #43
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@IsaactheSyrian

Let me say first that the your last post came across as measured and reasonable. The tone of this conversation seems to have taken a turn for the better. More productive.

I did want to address your last statement, "they're pushing things that the regular right aren't willing to say". I take a little offense to that part of your post. It suggests that the right shares their views but just aren't willing to voice them....like the vast majority of those on the right side of the aisle are closet racist. Speaking for myself and the majority of my friends and family who tend to lean right....WE ARE NOT RACIST, and do not agree with, sympathize with, or condone the actions of these people.
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Unread 08-22-2017, 12:04 PM   #44
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They're pushing things that the regular Right aren't willing to say.
Can you explain what you mean by this?
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Unread 08-22-2017, 02:06 PM   #45
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So, what I am hearing is that there is nothing at all relating them to any political movement. So is calling them the "far right" simply propaganda to associate them with the Republican party?
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