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Unread 08-19-2017, 07:33 AM   #16
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I'd encourage you guys to take a breather. there are people on this board who believe differently on this topic, and it's damaging to the cause of Christ to make sweeping generalizations about the thoughts and motives of people on either side. don't let this sectarian ideological divide snuff out your faith in fellow believers.

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Unread 08-19-2017, 11:08 AM   #17
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I don't get why this is a 'sectarian ideological divide', Dwight. This is literally just a matter of "Nazis are bad and killed a woman".

And people want to make this out like the 'ideology' (on the one side: anti-racism, on the other actual naziism) of both sides (anti racists... and... nazis) is equally problematic. That is a conclusion I think is utterly misguided and I won't hesitate to call that argument (and note carefully, not the person making it) dumb. To make these kinds of false equivalencies is to devalue naziism as the horror that it is.
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.

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Unread 08-19-2017, 12:48 PM   #18
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I won't be drawn into a debate. All I will say is statements like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IsaactheSyrian
Our forefathers died fighting these people in World War II, and some of you all sound like you want to give them quarter in 2017. I don't see why this is hard.
are counter productive to thoughtful discussion among believers.
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Unread 08-19-2017, 02:06 PM   #19
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as previously stated by other admins, let's take a step back and calm down.

this is a subject that is fraught with tension, and we need to remember (as dwight aptly pointed out) that there are a variety of perspectives on this. that does not mean that any bad behavior by any party is excusable, but it does mean that (for example) one may roundly condemn neonazism and still see acts of violence perpetrated by other factions in protest. one party's grotesque ideology or behavior does not excuse bad behavior by those who protest against it.

let's remember that we are first and foremost citizens of God's kingdom and that we must necessarily deplore any violence against any person. Christ died for us all, even the neonazis.

if you feel yourself becoming heated or emotional in this discussion, please take a step back and refrain from posting a response in the moment. being emotional over the hatred and violence is not wrong, but it behooves us and our community to have thoughtful discussion when we are not in the middle of seeing red.

thanks to you all for your cooperation.
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Unread 08-19-2017, 03:57 PM   #20
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Here's the thing about this that frustrates me. You have to look at more than one event to get a picture of who is on the far right and who is on the far left. This incident sheds some light on some of the people on the far right. Marches where people are calling for dead cops i.e. "what do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now" and "pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon" shed some light on some of the people on the far left.

I'm going to guess that there are no people here that would march with the neo nazis and want to see the white man crush all who oppose him. I'm pretty sure there's also no one here that wants to see cops killed or all whites punished for things that happened in the past. Yet, often times, we take those we don't agree with and try to paint them with the same brush.

I largely blame the media for this. I'd say the amount of people that actually fit into the extreme far left or right is probably less than 10% of the U S population. So that's 90% of us that are level headed and want to get along. But if you watch the news......

Here's my advice:
Blow up your t.v. throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try an find jesus on your own…

Bonus points for the first person that can name that tune (I'll take just the artist) without google
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Unread 08-19-2017, 05:06 PM   #21
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There are two sides to every story, coin, and agenda. If we were not there we cannot speak definitively to the exact actions.

I also find it hard to reason with those that are not willing to listen to the other side. Both sides are full of hate towards the other. If you are not on their side, you automatically belong to the other. I'm stuck in the middle and recognize that violence is never the correct answer regardless of who is committing it or propagating it.
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Unread 08-19-2017, 05:19 PM   #22
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Blow up your t.v. throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try an find jesus on your own…

I had one guess on this @beanbag that wasn't it.

It's a semi obscure singer song writer. I'm sure there's gotta be some people on here that know the guy.

He also wrote a song with the line:

Dear Abby, dear Abby,
you won't believe this,
but my stomach makes noises
when ever I kiss,
my girlfriend tells me it's all in my head,
but my stomach tells me to write you instead
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Unread 08-19-2017, 05:22 PM   #23
and you were wondering??
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I want to say more later, but I do think there is a real danger of people reading the situation as if there *is* two sides being represented here.

I've watched quite a lot of footage and read about the purpose of Unite the Right. It was much more monolithic than the counter-protesters, who weren't just people dressed in black. Clergy, students, and citizens of the town were present. And, actually, if it weren't for the 'antifa' it is likely clergy would have been harmed (per several eye witness testimony provided by clergy).

I really recommend people go watch the Vice documentary on Charlottesville. Youtube it.
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Unread 08-19-2017, 05:56 PM   #24
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That's what I keep trying to say, Taylor. There aren't two sides here. There were the Nazis, and the non-Nazis - everyone else.

I actually don't have a problem with violence against professed Nazis. Our forefathers fought them in WWII, we should fight them whenever and wherever they crop up at home as well. Yes, the Christian faith teaches nonviolence, but when you've got people who are threatening violence against vulnerable people in your community, you do something about it if talk doesn't work. And, with Nazis, talk doesn't work.
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.

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Unread 08-19-2017, 05:58 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Uptown Thrunk View Post
I want to say more later, but I do think there is a real danger of people reading the situation as if there *is* two sides being represented here.
What danger? Every news story you read will be biased for or against something. You cannot eliminate all bias. It comes out even in the best journalists.

But there is two sides (links/sources in green below). :

What Really Happened In Charlottesville | The Jewish Press | Rabbi Raphael Fuchs | 26 Av 5777

"These police separated the Nazis and the KKK into smaller groups and sections. However, once the first group was already separated, the police began to leave, despite the fact that the other group of rabble-rousers was now approaching the first group. And as anyone could have predicted, chaos ensued, and there was violence on both sides."

" It also appears that the police may have been given a stand-down order to allow for a scuffle to ensue. Some suggest that this was because it was well-known that any violence at such a rally would be blamed on President Trump and, to a larger extent, all Republicans, and all white people." -- The Governor of Virginia is from the Democratic Party and was a very verbal supporter of Hillary. Could he have orchestrated this chaos? While not entirely probable, it is possible.

"Two hateful groups attacked each other, not because of any personal offenses one committed against the other, but because of their principled beliefs of deep hatred for the other." -- Hatred from both sides boiled over into chaos.

Sheryl Gay Stolberg (@SherylNYT) - Journalist for New York Times has tweeted:

"Cville Chief, asked if one side or another was responsible for violence: There were "mutually combative individuals in the crowd.''

"2. The hard left seemed as hate-filled as alt-right. I saw club-wielding "antifa" beating white nationalists being led out of the park 2/2" -- She did later tweet that she thought the hard left was better described as "violent" instead of hate-filled as they were standing up to hate. I have a hard time distinguishing hatred and violence.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html

"Earlier this year, Antifa activists were among those who smashed windows and set fires during protests at the University of California, Berkeley, leading to the cancellation of far-right provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos and withdrawal of Ann Coulter as speakers." -- Antifa appears to be "non-violent"? It doesn't sound that way. Maybe at heart, like the BLM movement and it is highjacked by people who do not hold to the same values.

"And their methods are often violent. Antifa leaders admit they're willing to physically attack anyone who employs violence against them or who condones racism -- as long as force is used in the name of eradicating hatred." -- Well that doesn't sound lovely.

"Antifa members also sometimes launch attacks against people who aren't physically attacking them. The movement, Crow said, sees alt-right hate speech as violent, and for that, its activists have opted to meet violence with violence." -- Not so peaceful after all.

Call me a lunatic, but it does not sound like the Antifa movement is really against fascism. Wikipedia defines fascism as a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce, that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. This sounds like the Antifa movement based on the sources I have listed above.

But again, there are two sides to every story.
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Unread 08-19-2017, 06:08 PM   #26
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Two posts back-to-back because I do not want the two to get mingled together. I want to ask what may seem like a stupid question.

Why would you go to an event that you know is going cause you to become irate and full of rage? Why not allow them to have their rally and then you have your rally on another day? It seems like you're asking for trouble.

I'm not taking up for either side, but simply to ask, why bother? There are people that I like, but I do not want to go on vacation with because I know I will become agitated with them and lose my cool.

I hate to say it, but if the counter protestors were not here when this happened, I doubt it would have gained much more than a blip on the news circuit. But, because things got out of hand (on both parts), it has dominated the news cycle. There are roughly 40 total Klans left in the U.S. with the largest having no more than 100 members. That's a total of 4,000 people in the United States. That's a very minor percentage to dominate the news media.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...the-us-in-2017
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Unread 08-19-2017, 06:17 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bravesfan007 View Post
Two posts back-to-back because I do not want the two to get mingled together. I want to ask what may seem like a stupid question.

Why would you go to an event that you know is going cause you to become irate and full of rage? Why not allow them to have their rally and then you have your rally on another day? It seems like you're asking for trouble.
Why are you so intent on arguing that the Neo Nazis should be allowed to rally unopposed?
Quote:
I'm not taking up for either side, but simply to ask, why bother? There are people that I like, but I do not want to go on vacation with because I know I will become agitated with them and lose my cool.

I hate to say it, but if the counter protestors were not here when this happened, I doubt it would have gained much more than a blip on the news circuit. But, because things got out of hand (on both parts), it has dominated the news cycle. There are roughly 40 total Klans left in the U.S. with the largest having no more than 100 members. That's a total of 4,000 people in the United States. That's a very minor percentage to dominate the news media.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...the-us-in-2017
You keep saying you aren't taking a side, as you continue to default against the leftist protestors, and towards the right-wing.

I'm sorry, but y'all seriously need to stop treating this like its a personal attack to call hard right extremists bad, because you identify as right wing. And knock it off with the "All news is Biased" line, whenever they report something you dont want to hear.
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Unread 08-19-2017, 06:29 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by SporkV View Post
Why are you so intent on arguing that the Neo Nazis should be allowed to rally unopposed?
Because despite how I feel about it as a Christian, they have the right to a peaceful protest under the Constitution. There are things that I do not agree with that are allowed by my government.

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Originally Posted by SporkV View Post
You keep saying you aren't taking a side, as you continue to default against the leftist protestors, and towards the right-wing.
I defaulted simply because there are two sides to every story. I know, because I have been through enough crap in my lifetime to know this.

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Originally Posted by SporkV View Post
I'm sorry, but y'all seriously need to stop treating this like its a personal attack to call hard right extremists bad, because you identify as right wing. And knock it off with the "All news is Biased" line, whenever they report something you dont want to hear.
Actually, I don't really identify as right wing. Even when the news reports something that I do want to hear, I recognize the bias in it. Every single person has an agenda when it comes to storytelling.
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Unread 08-19-2017, 07:05 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bravesfan007 View Post
Because despite how I feel about it as a Christian, they have the right to a peaceful protest under the Constitution. There are things that I do not agree with that are allowed by my government.
What peaceful protest? The Neo-Nazis came fully armed. And, unless I misunderstand your constitution, there is nothing about your peaceful protests having to be unopposed. The leftists have just as much of a right to counter-protest.
Quote:
I defaulted simply because there are two sides to every story. I know, because I have been through enough crap in my lifetime to know this.
Just because there are 2 sides does not mean both have merit.

Here's some quotes about how the antifa were literally saving lives
Quote:
A phalanx of neo-Nazis shoved right through our human wall with 3-foot-wide wooden shields, screaming and spitting homophobic slurs and obscenities at us. It was then that antifa stepped in to thwart them. They have their tools to achieve their purposes, and they are not ones I will personally use, but let me stress that our purposes were the same: block this violent tide and do not let it take the pedestal.

The white supremacists did not blink at violently plowing right through clergy, all of us dressed in full clerical garb. White supremacy is violence. I didn’t see any racial justice protesters with weapons; as for antifa, anything they brought I would only categorize as community defense tools and nothing more. Pretty much everyone I talk to agrees—including most clergy. My strong stance is that the weapon is and was white supremacy, and the white supremacists intentionally brought weapons to instigate violence.
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Unread 08-19-2017, 10:36 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bravesfan007 View Post
Two posts back-to-back because I do not want the two to get mingled together. I want to ask what may seem like a stupid question.

Why would you go to an event that you know is going cause you to become irate and full of rage? Why not allow them to have their rally and then you have your rally on another day? It seems like you're asking for trouble.
If you seriously have to ask this, you clearly haven't experienced anything that would make you fear for yourself as a result of white supremacy.

Naziism must be opposed. Period. And you just said that it should not be opposed, because, essentially, 'muh free speech!'.

I also don't understand why people who are standing up to Nazis are being described as 'leftists' here. The soldiers who fought in World War 2's German front were, presumably, not all 'leftists'.
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.


Last edited by IsaactheSyrian; 08-19-2017 at 10:47 PM.
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