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Unread 01-02-2020, 08:29 AM   #121
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regurgitating this thread, and taking it in a slightly different direction that I'm curious about right now.

has our political system always been this polarized and messed up? or is it kind of like me telling my kids that the music these days has never been so evil, and every generation of parents says that?

I try to look at this whole thing with an open mind, and am failing.
I was watching the CNN series The Nineties on Netflix last night. The similarities between the impeachment of Clinton and Trump are frightening. The only real difference is that it's a different party. The very same people who vigorously defended Bill are the ones calling for Trump's head. The very same people defending Trump were the ones trying to take Clinton down. It's actually quite sickening. Democrats now are using the exact same arguments they criticized Republicans for using then and vice versa.

I can tell you another thing that hasn't changed; America sure does like to bomb other people when it is convenient or beneficial.

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Unread 01-02-2020, 10:05 AM   #122
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part of me worries that it's never been worse - that feeling of panic that if I don't act NOW, we're all doomed.

the other part of me worries that every person at all time has felt the exact same way - and we're still here.
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Unread 01-02-2020, 11:02 AM   #123
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part of me worries that it's never been worse - that feeling of panic that if I don't act NOW, we're all doomed.

the other part of me worries that every person at all time has felt the exact same way - and we're still here.
There's nothing new under the sun.

As far as America goes, it doesn't seem any worse overall to me. Then again, I openly confess that I think our government has been corrupt for a long time. I mean, we killed our own President in 1963. How can this be worse than that?
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Unread 01-02-2020, 11:07 AM   #124
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the in-laws brought up Kennedy when we were at their house for Christmas the other day - something about new evidence supporting that an FBI dude accidentally shot Kennedy. I hadn't heard that one, will have to look into it.
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Unread 01-02-2020, 11:47 AM   #125
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the in-laws brought up Kennedy when we were at their house for Christmas the other day - something about new evidence supporting that an FBI dude accidentally shot Kennedy. I hadn't heard that one, will have to look into it.
It's been floating around for a long time. It does have its opponents.

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Unread 01-04-2020, 10:06 AM   #126
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This president is unhinged. He needs to be removed from office and his enablers held accountable somehow.
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Unread 01-04-2020, 01:51 PM   #127
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This president is unhinged. He needs to be removed from office and his enablers held accountable somehow.
I don't see him doing anything that his immediate predecessors didn't do. He bombed someone? That's pretty much business as usual for America. We've been in the war business my entire life and I don't see us getting out of it. Or is there something else that causes you to think he's unhinged at the moment?

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to be removed from office. In fact. I have a feeling we're getting four more years of him.

FWIW...under Bush there were 57 drone strikes in Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen. Under Obama there were 563. I can't find a number for all three years but in his first two years Trump has ordered 239. That's higher than Obama's first year but still fits the pattern for U.S. intervention in that area.

And just for the record, I'm not a fan of bombing anyone.

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Unread 01-05-2020, 12:40 AM   #128
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You are a fool if you think this situation is "business as usual" and "no different than his predecessors."

And for the record I am fully aware of what you stated. I have been a huge critic of executive overreach post 9/11 and with the passage of the Patriot Act. The real issue at hand is that the person who fills the office of POTUS is a dumbed down version of what I have been fearing would fill the office for years.

I do not want to live in a world where the President can kill anybody anytime anywhere with no accountability. Especially if that President is Donald Trump. He's a ____ing reality TV host for God's sake.

Come on man. What is up with people not being willing to call a spade a spade? Are we that much gone into an orwellian society that a president can assassinate a man from his beach house in Florida and attend a summit of Christians that treat him like he's God's gift to mankind? For ____ sake.
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Unread 01-05-2020, 07:39 AM   #129
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You are a fool if you think this situation is "business as usual" and "no different than his predecessors."

And for the record I am fully aware of what you stated. I have been a huge critic of executive overreach post 9/11 and with the passage of the Patriot Act. The real issue at hand is that the person who fills the office of POTUS is a dumbed down version of what I have been fearing would fill the office for years.

I do not want to live in a world where the President can kill anybody anytime anywhere with no accountability. Especially if that President is Donald Trump. He's a ____ing reality TV host for God's sake.

Come on man. What is up with people not being willing to call a spade a spade? Are we that much gone into an orwellian society that a president can assassinate a man from his beach house in Florida and attend a summit of Christians that treat him like he's God's gift to mankind? For ____ sake.
I have not insulted your intelligence. Don't insult mine.

I am not supporting Donald Trump. Not once have you seen me suggest that he is a good President. Not once have you seen me say I that like him or think he's that doing a great job.

I am simply stating that he is the end result of our current political system. Every sitting President in the last 30 years has done the same things he is doing. That doesn't give him a pass. That doesn't justify it. But to suggest that he is somehow THAT much different than the rest of them falls on deaf ears. The ENTIRE system is corrupt and broken. Trump is proof of that. The fact the he will most likely get re-elected proves my point. This country is broken beyond repair. I don't trust any of them and I have no faith in any of them.

Fortunately, I don't have to. Jesus is still on His throne.

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Unread 01-05-2020, 11:24 PM   #130
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Hello, all.

I have not posted on CGR in over six months. I still lurk quite regularly, but have not felt inclined to post. Part of this is that due to the nature of my job, I am quite leery to post much of anything on public parts of the internet. But another large part of it is that I simply lack the time, interest, or energy to engage in debates online.

Reading through this thread this evening, I'm reminded of a conversation I was having with a friend a few days ago, about the struggles of building communities, especially online. One of the chronic challenges of internet discourse is that it is, in some ways, rather easy to be very civil online, to never raise your voice or insult someone. If you can argue entirely in logos and ethos, you'll probably never run afoul of the terms of use of any major website.

The problem, though, is that humans are emotional creatures. And when we are passionate about something, it is unbearably hard to listen to statements that seem very calm and factual, but which espouse beliefs that you know are demonstrably false, or opinions that actively hurt the lives of people you love. There's only so much of that you can take before you end up snapping at somebody, or having to just remove yourself from the conversation entirely. So when websites try to make rules for their users' behavior, they often end up accidentally favoring the people who can be the politest, rather than fostering discourse that is constructive and just.

CGR's first rule of conduct is to strive to be imitators of Christ. He sat with people in their suffering, He wept in the face of tragedy, and He pissed a whole lot of people off, until they eventually killed Him for it.




I cannot think of a single positive thing to say about Donald Trump. I greatly look forward to the day he is no longer in office, whether by losing the election later this year or by removal through the impeachment process. He has openly colluded with a foreign power to interfere with this year's election, he has locked children in cages, he has bragged about sexually assaulting women, he has taken actively counterproductive actions in these crucial years for limiting the impacts of climate change, and now he has threatened war crimes against Iran. I fear impeachment as a method for removing him from office, because while I do not think Mike Pence is quite as likely to lead us into World War III, I believe he embodies many of Trump's most bigoted instincts, on top of which I worry that he will make life a living hell for many LGBTQIA+ folks I call friends. I believe the extent of Trump's disregard for the role of the presidency, aided by a Republican-led Senate completely uninterested in serving their constitutional duty as a check on executive authority, leaves the foundation of our democracy in a much more dire situation than it was under Obama or George W. Bush. (If anyone wishes to argue with me about the legal conclusions I've drawn here, I'd like to note now that I am not going to get pulled into an argument over any of my statements, and also remind you that I'm the only person on CGR who studied and practices law.)

As Christians, we do have hope in a life beyond this world. But God doesn't teleport us from whatever ether we exist in pre-conception directly to whatever afterlife awaits us. His purpose is for us to spend a few decades on this earth, observing suffering and corruption, and empathizing with those who are cast out. Part of that involves walking around on half a dozen continents, eating and sleeping and falling in love and fighting for resources, and eventually organizing ourselves into governments, because every unorganized group of people eventually develops a loose leadership once you have more than about five people in the room. One way or another, we allow those groups to decide who gets what, and how. "Politics" are an inevitable part of being a human being. I refuse to be pulled into nihilism about the planet I currently live on, and my nearly 7 billion roommates on it. Because I have the privilege of living in a democracy, I believe this means I have to be troubled in the face of injustices perpetuated by my government, and do what I can to make sure that the political system we have to work with does the best job it can for as many people as possible.

I will not respond to this thread again. Peace be with you all. Warren 2020.
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Unread 01-06-2020, 11:14 AM   #131
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Well, I certainly have a lot of thoughts crossing my mind about everything that has happened here. However, let me put it like this:

Maybe we should be less concerned with kingdom things and more concerned with Kingdom things. I’ve seen too many people on both sides freak out because the opposition party is in control. Learn to breathe. Learn to grieve. Learn to move on. If it’s helpful, learn to stuff the emotions because that’s what good Americans do.
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Unread 01-06-2020, 11:27 AM   #132
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Just so everyone understands, I am not ignoring anyone. I don't agree with some of you so I am a fool. I haven't studied law so apparently I am not capable of understanding the situation. That being said, I am done with this thread. Nothing good has come out of it and nothing good will.
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Unread 01-07-2020, 01:27 PM   #133
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folks, just a reminder here that we do not allow personal attacks. calling someone a fool falls into that category.

keep it civil, and don't forget that we are a community of Christ.
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Unread 01-15-2020, 10:02 AM   #134
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I was just thinking last night that I wondered if we were still impeaching the president or not. I got an update this morning from Twitter letting me know that Speaker Pelosi finally laid out the ones that will be presenting the arguments for removal from office.

Does this mean that the articles of impeachment have actually been delivered or are they still being held?
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I would throw any bro under the bus for a Cheeto. Or a ho for that matter.

Not like a ho ho, mind you. Like a godly ho.
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Unread 01-15-2020, 02:48 PM   #135
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I heard suggestions that the delay may have something to do with not wanting to tie up certain presidential candidates in Senate hearings...
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But He was pierced for our transgressions
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
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