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Unread 12-18-2019, 01:35 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Leboman View Post

I didn't say he didn't do anything. I said I don't believe it is impeachable by the historic definitions. I believe the Democrats are changing the rules as they go along. If you take Nader's own words during the Clinton impeachment (which he opposed) and hold him to them, then you have to reject this one as well.

For some reason people seem to think that if you oppose impeachment then you are somehow pro-Trump. I don't get that.
I think It comes down to: You think what he did was not inappropriate. However I have heard contradicting things. 1) it wasnt really quid pro quo; 2) his pressure on Ukraine by withholding vital defense funds is totally normal and everyone does it, so not a big deal.

Both, I think, are wrong. 1) this easily constitutes quid pro quo, or undue pressure on a foreign power to investigate a political rival for explicitly self-serving political reasons. The arguments against this are, I think, weak. Especially the notion that Trump is concerned with corruption in Ukraine. According to the testimonies thus far, he has low regard for the Ukraine and doesnt care about the place, not wanting to meet with the President if Ukraine. He only cared about the place because it could impact the US presidential election.

2) all of the testimonies by credible, eyewitness sources indicate this is NOT usual. I know we all like the drama of television and film and seem to think that the world operates how these mediums imply they do, but it doesnt. That isnt to say, of course, that US politics probably operates in some ways nationally on some basis of "favour" or "gift". I'm honestly not sure. But, what I do know is that credible sources that deal with international level interaction say that what Trump was doing was not usual and was extremely inappropriate. This is why the info was hidden and classified, the transcript password protected.

Further, it really makes no difference if other presidrnts have done similar. I know some of you think that Hillary and Obama are murderers or something (I'm guessing the Seth Rich conspiracy? How odd), but that is not what is beig discussed. If Obama was attacking a political rival by pressuring the literal existence of another nation unless they started a phony investigation then this would be impeachable. Obviously.

What Obama or whoever has done has nothing to do with this. Sorry. Alleged hypocrisy has no bearing on the argument, and it isnt convincing.

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Unread 12-18-2019, 02:03 PM   #92
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The President of Ukraine said there was no undue influence. He's the one who was supposedly being influenced. Ukraine got the money without meeting the so-called conditions for getting it. That is not quid pro quo. Period. This is the same Ukrainian government that the Obama administration dangled $1 Billion over in order to influence an investigation. So, yes, their hypocrisy DOES come into play. What other Presidents have done does matter when the current one is being held to a different standard. If you and I have the exact same job but two different sets of requirements and responsibilities then something isn't kosher. If we're both playing chess and then half-way through the game I change the rules for you then something isn't right. And don't insult me by throwing out ridiculous conspiracy nonsense at me. I haven't said a single thing about anyone being a murderer and I never alluded to any such nonsense.

I have watched HOURS of this mess. Democrats say one thing and Republicans say something completely different.I have not seen one witness demonstrate that Trump committed a crime. Not one. The one witness they keep leaning on (Sondland) admitted that he never heard Trump make any sort of request. He just presumed (his word not mine) that's what was happening. So Trump is guilty because we presume him to be. That makes sense.

If you don't believe that EVERY U.S. President coerces other world leaders then I don't know what else to say. Trump has been playing by the established rules that his predecessors did and then Democrats wanted to change them.
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Last edited by Leboman; 12-18-2019 at 02:20 PM.
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Unread 12-18-2019, 02:39 PM   #93
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I will add this. In the end, I'm not really concerned about the impeachment in the first place. He is not going to be removed from office and this has only strengthened his support. I don't want to see him in the White House but the Democrats just guaranteed that he will be. And when they lose the majority in the house as blow back, maybe they'll understand what they've done. They can't find a candidate who can beat him so they pull this. By lowering the bar all they have done is made sure that every future President (Democrat or Republican) will face the threat of impeachment from Day One.

Way to go guys.
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Unread 12-18-2019, 05:09 PM   #94
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https://medium.com/@historiansonimpe...p-6e4ed2277b16

An open letter from more than 700 historians that talk about the veracity of the impeachment claims. Short and sweet.
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Unread 12-18-2019, 07:45 PM   #95
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Do ald Trump becomes the third president to ever be impeached.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/18/78902...istoric-rebuke
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Unread 12-18-2019, 07:45 PM   #96
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https://medium.com/@historiansonimpe...p-6e4ed2277b16

An open letter from more than 700 historians that talk about the veracity of the impeachment claims. Short and sweet.
That actually doesn't prove anything. How many of those who signed it were anti-Trump to begin with? If I already don't like Trump I am more inclined to agree with these shenanigans. I read the letter. I perused the names of those who signed it. My thoughts? So what? I bet you could find those who would sign a letter contradicting it as well.

And not to be contrary, but Medium is not a particularly unbiased or dependable source of information. I have deliberately stayed away from anything on Fox because I know it would get lambasted for being pro-Trump. I have intentionally stuck with guys like Tim Pool and Jimmy Dore because they are not Trump supporters and have given the most unbiased comments I've seen thus far.
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Unread 12-19-2019, 01:53 AM   #97
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That actually doesn't prove anything. How many of those who signed it were anti-Trump to begin with? If I already don't like Trump I am more inclined to agree with these shenanigans. I read the letter. I perused the names of those who signed it. My thoughts? So what? I bet you could find those who would sign a letter contradicting it as well.

And not to be contrary, but Medium is not a particularly unbiased or dependable source of information. I have deliberately stayed away from anything on Fox because I know it would get lambasted for being pro-Trump. I have intentionally stuck with guys like Tim Pool and Jimmy Dore because they are not Trump supporters and have given the most unbiased comments I've seen thus far.
Jesus. There it is.

Tim Pool is NOT an umbiased source Lee. You seem to think you are super objective about everything while spending time watching conspiracy theorists and "journalists" who hang out with alt right white nationalists like the Proud Boys.

Bro. Seriously. These are NOT good sources. They are grifters and conspiracy theorists. Like of the highest level. Andy Ngo level. You may as well be watching Fox News. But actually this is worse cause Fox at least has Chris Wallace, who challenges the state media.
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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Unread 12-19-2019, 09:37 AM   #98
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Where should I get an unbiased view into what is happening?
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Unread 12-19-2019, 09:56 AM   #99
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Where should I get an unbiased view into what is happening?
Whichever ones are supporting impeachment.
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Unread 12-19-2019, 01:36 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Leboman View Post

Whichever ones are supporting impeachment.
Come on man. You are being unfair here.

Pointing out that Tim Pool is an apologist for alt-right gangs isn't that controversial. Any member of the media that hangs out with a violent gang and plays to their base is not worth listening to.

We need to be extremely wary about fascist propaganda during a preiod in which it is alive and well.
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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Unread 12-19-2019, 01:41 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by bravesfan007 View Post
Where should I get an unbiased view into what is happening?
I think we would all agree here that there isnt any unbiased source. So we probably need to 1) consider the source. Meaning, don't listen to people who support alt-right gangs or who are quite obviously trying to energise their base through dog whistling (for instance, Breitbart). 2) weigh those reputable sources you do find against each other. 3) weigh sources based on authority. 4) don't take anything for granted.

I'm not saying I do all of those perfectly. But, hell y'all. Dont you recall how massive misinformation is in the internet/social media age? Dont you recall that Russia was undoubtedly engaged, and continues to engage, in a massive misinformation campaign in order to sew division amd skew things toward whatever policies and politicians would influence world governance in their direction?
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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Unread 12-19-2019, 01:42 PM   #102
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Also I'm really Sorry that I am quiet with this thread anr havent properly responded to comments. Ive been working a lot And havent had time at all to write long posts.
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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Unread 12-19-2019, 01:46 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Dr. Thrunk View Post
Come on man. You are being unfair here.

Pointing out that Tim Pool is an apologist for alt-right gangs isn't that controversial. Any member of the media that hangs out with a violent gang and plays to their base is not worth listening to.

We need to be extremely wary about fascist propaganda during a preiod in which it is alive and well.
Pool is a self-admitted left-leaning Bernie Sanders supporter. The left says he's alt-right and the right says he's alt-left. What I've seen from him is a contempt for mainstream media and criticism of both parties. I'm right there with him on that.
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Unread 12-19-2019, 01:50 PM   #104
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Also I'm really Sorry that I am quiet with this thread anr havent properly responded to comments. Ive been working a lot And havent had time at all to write long posts.
That's fine. I'm pretty much done with it. He's impeached. He's still the President. Nothing has changed.

This is like having people on a jury who hear the exact same evidence and come to different conclusions. This is dead-locked. None of our conclusions are objective. We all see things through our own personal lenses. I have a massive disdain for the two party system so that is going to color the way I see things. This looks like nothing more than partisan political games.

My one true question is this. What have Democrats really accomplished here? He will not be removed from office and right now polls seem to indicate he'll win re-election. The Republicans stand a chance of regaining the House in 2020 so they won't be able to pull another impeachment. And now Pelosi is hinting that she isn't going to send the articles to the Senate. This a bigger joke than the Clinton impeachment and that one was on the Republicans.
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Unread 12-19-2019, 01:54 PM   #105
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Pool is a self-admitted left-leaning Bernie Sanders supporter. The left says he's alt-right and the right says he's alt-left. What I've seen from him is a contempt for mainstream media and criticism of both parties. I'm right there with him on that.
Sorry dude. Not true at all. Again, he is a documented far right grifter who hangs out with Baked Alaska, Allsup of Identity Evropa, Brittney Pettibone, and others.

He defends people like Gavin McInnes and the Pround Boys. Did so several times, like on the Joe Rogan Podcast.

Spreads lies by far right liar Jacob Wahl.

Not sure why you don't trust MSM, but do some weirdo in a beanie.
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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