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Unread 12-16-2019, 11:33 AM   #76
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Do you guys realize how ridiculous you sound with this weird "both sides-ism" you keep spouting? It amazes me that anybody can think that this moron president is not unfit for office.

Without a doubt what he did in the articles put forth by the house committee are impeachable offenses.

And get out of here with your ridiculous fatalism regarding our government.

My opinion: this is the last dying breath and hold out of a bankrupt political machine that has conscripted the GOP. I hope we see some corrupt guys go down and hopefully the conservatives can find a way to save face by becoming a party of ideals again.
Given the standards set by history, the House has not presented an impeachable offense. The two crimes they tried to prove are not even part of the articles. What the Democrats have done is lowered the bar so far that every future President will run the risk of being impeached when the opposing party has a House minority.

Ridiculous fatalism? I'm wondering if you are paying attention. When the last election gave us Trump (a baffoon) and Hillary (an actual criminal) then the system is broken.

As far as him being fit for office, I never said he was. I am not a Trump supporter. I did not vote for him. I don't know how many times I have to say that. It amazes me that people can't admit their own biases when it comes to him. Just because you don't like doesn't make him guilty. The Democrats sure batted that around when Bill Clinton was being impeached. The difference there was he actually committed a demonstrable crime: he lied under oath.

The GOP isn't the only bankrupt political entity in this. The Democrats are just as bad. I want corrupt guys/gals to go down as well. That would clean out both parties.

As a Christian I don't even worry about it. It's broken because it is a man-made system that is corrupted by power and money. Jesus is King and that's all that really matters to me.

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Unread 12-16-2019, 03:09 PM   #77
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No. It's not ridiculous. I live in the Commonwealth of Virginia where things are...for lack of better words...heating up on the idea of what rights are entailed in the 2nd Amendment.

Would I vote for Trump? No. Would I vote to impeach him? No. Not unless you start impeaching nearly every public official.

Both sides have set dangerous precedents within the past ten years. I'm afraid there is no walking back from the ledge now.
What does the 2nd Amendment have to do with the impeachment of President Trump?

What does you voting for Trump have to do with his impeachment?

The articles of impeachment state that President Trump abused his power and that he obstructed Congress.

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Given the standards set by history, the House has not presented an impeachable offense. The two crimes they tried to prove are not even part of the articles. What the Democrats have done is lowered the bar so far that every future President will run the risk of being impeached when the opposing party has a House minority.

Ridiculous fatalism? I'm wondering if you are paying attention. When the last election gave us Trump (a baffoon) and Hillary (an actual criminal) then the system is broken.

As far as him being fit for office, I never said he was. I am not a Trump supporter. I did not vote for him. I don't know how many times I have to say that. It amazes me that people can't admit their own biases when it comes to him. Just because you don't like doesn't make him guilty. The Democrats sure batted that around when Bill Clinton was being impeached. The difference there was he actually committed a demonstrable crime: he lied under oath.

The GOP isn't the only bankrupt political entity in this. The Democrats are just as bad. I want corrupt guys/gals to go down as well. That would clean out both parties.

As a Christian I don't even worry about it. It's broken because it is a man-made system that is corrupted by power and money. Jesus is King and that's all that really matters to me.
Funny that constitutional lawyers and professors have resoundingly said otherwise regarding the impeach ability of his behavior and the veracity of the articles of impeachment.

I am paying attention. What does Hillary have to do with Trumps impeachment?

I never said he was guilty because I didn't like him. He did impeachable things. Therefore he should be impeached.

We are not talking about Bill Clinton's impeachment, but if you want to talk about that it could stem off into another discussion. I realize there are few precedents set but I don't think Trump's impeachment is very analogous to Clinton's. I think his is more analogous to Nixon and Johnson.
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Unread 12-16-2019, 03:24 PM   #78
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You brought up the idea that Trump is not fit for office. I was countering that neither is Hillary. That is the choice we were given. That is why I believe our system is broken. That was in response to you rebuking me for ridiculous fatalism.

At least one constitutional lawyer (out of the four who testified) says there is no grounds for impeachment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeeZxiPWl8c


Once again, I don't think the Democrats have successfully proven grounds for impeachment. You say they have. I disagree. There is no such thing as obstructing Congress. Presidents have the right to withhold things from Congress. Obama did it several times. If Congress believes it is improper, you have the Supreme Court there to rule on it.
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Unread 12-16-2019, 07:01 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
You brought up the idea that Trump is not fit for office. I was countering that neither is Hillary. That is the choice we were given. That is why I believe our system is broken. That was in response to you rebuking me for ridiculous fatalism.

At least one constitutional lawyer (out of the four who testified) says there is no grounds for impeachment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeeZxiPWl8c


Once again, I don't think the Democrats have successfully proven grounds for impeachment. You say they have. I disagree. There is no such thing as obstructing Congress. Presidents have the right to withhold things from Congress. Obama did it several times. If Congress believes it is improper, you have the Supreme Court there to rule on it.
I never said anything about what he did before going into office. How he has carried himself as the Commander and Chief is what makes him unfit for office. Again, Hillary has nothing to do with Trumps behavior in office. Congress is doing its due diligence to make sure that the Constitution is adhered to by a coequal branch of government of which it is supposed to maintain checks and balances.

Your source did not say that there are no grounds for impeachment. He was critiquing the process by which it is happening. I don't disagree with him, either. But to say that he said that there are no grounds for impeachment is disingenuous at best.

I should have said contempt of congress. I misspoke. The executive branch has SOME rights to withhold things from congress but you are playing fast and loose with our nation's reliance on checks and balances between coequal branches of government. Also, we are not talking about Obama. We are talking about Donald Trump's actions as the POTUS.
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Unread 12-16-2019, 09:21 PM   #80
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What does the 2nd Amendment have to do with the impeachment of President Trump?

What does you voting for Trump have to do with his impeachment?

The articles of impeachment state that President Trump abused his power and that he obstructed Congress.
My apologies. You mentioned the fatalism of the government. As I see it the political climate of Virginia is simply a ramped up version of the national culture. Surprisingly, at this point it is where it is at.

The two party system has failed us. It will eventually be our demise.
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Unread 12-16-2019, 09:22 PM   #81
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For those in favor of the impeachment, would you still be in favor of it if Biden were not a candidate?
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I would throw any bro under the bus for a Cheeto. Or a ho for that matter.

Not like a ho ho, mind you. Like a godly ho.
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Unread 12-16-2019, 11:42 PM   #82
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For those in favor of the impeachment, would you still be in favor of it if Biden were not a candidate?
Yes.
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Unread 12-17-2019, 07:45 AM   #83
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I never said anything about what he did before going into office. How he has carried himself as the Commander and Chief is what makes him unfit for office. Again, Hillary has nothing to do with Trumps behavior in office. Congress is doing its due diligence to make sure that the Constitution is adhered to by a coequal branch of government of which it is supposed to maintain checks and balances.

Your source did not say that there are no grounds for impeachment. He was critiquing the process by which it is happening. I don't disagree with him, either. But to say that he said that there are no grounds for impeachment is disingenuous at best.

I should have said contempt of congress. I misspoke. The executive branch has SOME rights to withhold things from congress but you are playing fast and loose with our nation's reliance on checks and balances between coequal branches of government. Also, we are not talking about Obama. We are talking about Donald Trump's actions as the POTUS.
I don't see Trump doing anything that any other President hasn't done. As far as Congress goes, this impeachment actually does not meet the standards set by the founding fathers.

You keep dismissing the actions of other politicians which is also disingenuous. Obama did things worse than Trump while in office and was not impeached for them. The actions of previous Presidents do matter when the current one is being held to a different set of standards. You keep saying none of that is important because we're talking about Trump. He is playing the same game that those before him played but now people want to change the rules because they don't like him and they know they can't beat him in 2020.
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Unread 12-17-2019, 07:57 AM   #84
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Yes.
I'm assuming that is based off of other actions taken by the current President and not the one particular phone call.
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I would throw any bro under the bus for a Cheeto. Or a ho for that matter.

Not like a ho ho, mind you. Like a godly ho.
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Unread 12-17-2019, 09:45 AM   #85
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For those in favor of the impeachment, would you still be in favor of it if Biden were not a candidate?
I'm confused by this. Are you saying that his being a candidate has a bearing on (allegedly) impeachable activity of the president?

Personally, I dont think it does.

If he were legitimately investigated (not just conspiratorially spat at by fringe vloggers) and found to do anything wrong then he should be held accountable. Certainly.

But that has no bearing on the issue at hand.
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Unread 12-17-2019, 09:51 AM   #86
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I'm confused by this. Are you saying that his being a candidate has a bearing on (allegedly) impeachable activity of the president?

Personally, I dont think it does.

If he were legitimately investigated (not just conspiratorially spat at by fringe vloggers) and found to do anything wrong then he should be held accountable. Certainly.

But that has no bearing on the issue at hand.
Actually, that is one of the things the Democrats were trying to push in the beginning. Trump supposedly manipulated Ukraine to get them to investigate Biden's connections. It was one of their key points until the Quid Pro Quo accusation disappeared.
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Unread 12-17-2019, 01:21 PM   #87
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I'm confused by this. Are you saying that his being a candidate has a bearing on (allegedly) impeachable activity of the president?

Personally, I dont think it does.

If he were legitimately investigated (not just conspiratorially spat at by fringe vloggers) and found to do anything wrong then he should be held accountable. Certainly.

But that has no bearing on the issue at hand.
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Actually, that is one of the things the Democrats were trying to push in the beginning. Trump supposedly manipulated Ukraine to get them to investigate Biden's connections. It was one of their key points until the Quid Pro Quo accusation disappeared.
^This

Don't get me wrong, I believe he has done things I wouldn't do, but it doesn't help me want to convict or impeach him because that has been the cry of the left from day zero.

If the Democrats do not win the 2020 election (and I don't believe they will) what else will they try and throw at the man to get him removed from office?

Certainly he is not a moral man, but neither is any other candidate. Anyone who has their name at that level of the upper class certainly has cut people off, jabbed things into another's back and is guilty of much more than we recognize.
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Not like a ho ho, mind you. Like a godly ho.
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Unread 12-17-2019, 08:47 PM   #88
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You guys lost me. I don't understand your thought process in to saying he hasn't done what the house has accused him of and why it isn't impeach able anyways.
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Unread 12-18-2019, 07:39 AM   #89
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You guys lost me. I don't understand your thought process in to saying he hasn't done what the house has accused him of and why it isn't impeach able anyways.
I didn't say he didn't do anything. I said I don't believe it is impeachable by the historic definitions. I believe the Democrats are changing the rules as they go along. If you take Nader's own words during the Clinton impeachment (which he opposed) and hold him to them, then you have to reject this one as well.

For some reason people seem to think that if you oppose impeachment then you are somehow pro-Trump. I don't get that.
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Unread 12-18-2019, 11:25 AM   #90
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The House is voting on impeachment today.

They just voted on rules and, as expected, voting went according to party lines. Interestingly two Democrats sided with Republicans, but one of those Democrats announced a few days ago that he was switching parties. Amash, ex-Republican and now Independent sided with Democrats.

I'll be sending my representative some disapproving emails later today. As is tradition.
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