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Unread 02-02-2017, 10:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
I didn't take it in Bible College (really regretting that now) and am really wanting to learn as much as possible on my own.

For those of you who have studied it independently, what are the best resources you have come across? I wish I had the money to actually take it under a professor but that isn't in the cards at the moment.
Caveat: I didn't study it independently. I took 3 years in undergrad, then suicide Greek in seminary followed by the advanced exegesis track & the other Greek-centric courses for my MDiv. I did not take the additional Greek courses offered by Trinity, but I continue to use Greek every day in my personal and pastoral study. As a way of trying to convince you to do it my way, I used the following resources as intended and scored a perfect score on Trinity's Greek placement exam, followed by a job as a TA in the New Testament department that included research assistant stuff and grading other MDiv students' Greek work.

My first suggestion to you is that you consider getting William Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek. I know some seminaries are moving away from it to use Duff, but I think it might be a mistake. Mounce's system is the most logical, easy system I've ever seen for learning NT Greek. Plus, they have the backing of Zondervan which means there's a whole suite of resources to accompany it. For example, if you get Mounce, you've GOT to get (this is my STRONGGGGGGG personal suggestion):

Basics of Biblical Greek Workbook
Biblical Greek Laminated Cheat Sheet

Get these 3 resources and use ALL of them. Focus on learning the RULES Mounce gives and the details like case endings & verb paradigms will make much more sense and stick with you over time. Trust me!!!

One optional addition - Zondervan's flash card collection

There are two problems with Mounce, one of which is true of Duff as well:

1) Mounce and Duff are just wrong on the nature of Greek verb tenses. This is partially because it seems easier to teach this way and correct it later, and partially because they probably don't agree with the ground-shifting changes that have taken place in the last 20 years in NT Greek scholarship. But they're wrong. Sidney Porter, D.A. Carson, and Constantine Campbell are right.
2) Mounce and most Koine grammars (I don't know about Duff) focus entirely on reading & translating Greek to English, with little or no attempt at teaching you to translate the other direction. This is because it's a dead language and you don't need to converse in Koine. But it creates two problems: First, mastery takes MUCH longer - I still can't translate English to Greek with any kind of proficiency, which means my Greek to English is not what it could be; second, traditional Koine pronunciation is universally understood to be a creation of the academy. No one ever pronounced things the way you will be taught to speak in these resources, so learning modern Greek is like learning yet another language. It means you can't facilitate growing in your Koine proficiency by conversing with a modern Greek speaker.

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Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
I've got a couple Greek NT in my LOGOS library.

It does have the NA 27th edition. I can buy the newest one and install it. It's $39.99. It's $99.99 with the Critical Apparatus included.
NA27 is fine. To learn Greek you don't need the apparatus, but for the most thorough exegesis you do. However, I highly suggest you buy a new or used physical copy. You will forever be tempted to use the various tools that LOGOS offers. You'll try to translate, get frustrated, and hover your mouse over a word to let LOGOS help you. It kills learning. You really need a book and some paper and you need to write out your translations. It feels like a pain, but it actually makes you learn faster and better.

In addition to Nestle-Aland, the United Bible Society 5th edition is the same text as NA28 but with a much simplified apparatus. If you can find a used NA27 or UBS 4 at an affordable price, do it. I wish I still had my UBS 4 - I'd mail it to you. I only have an NA27 now and it's beat-up and coffee-stained. And I love her.

Anyway, the Society of Biblical Literature Greek New Testament is excellent and less expensive than NA28. It has an apparatus. You can get a copy new for like $30.

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Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
Are there any other tools that you would deem essential?

I have lexicons and grammars and things like that in LOGOS. There are also some other books that seem helpful.

I do have Mounce's Greek For The Rest Of Us here in the office and have thought about getting this.

Basics Of Biblical Greek
Yes! That pack will serve you well!! After you do Mounce, I'd say here are some tools that are worth having:

Grab a used copy of the Reader's Lexicon of the GNT. This thing is amazing. Any word I don't know in any chapter, it's right there with a simple gloss. Best book I ever bought for NT Greek.

Save for later: Lexical Aids for Students of NT Greek. This is more of a "drilling manual" to increase vocab. If you manage Mounce right, you'll know every word that occurs more than 50 times in the NT by the end. We used this little book in my exegesis courses to get down to all words occurring 10 times or more. My vocab isn't that good now, but it's much better than it would have been without "Lexical Aids."

Save for later: Basics of New Testament Syntax. This is an abridgment of Daniel Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. It's an intermediate grammar. The giant version is like 900 pages. I think this one is about 300. Chances are good that you already have the bigger one in LOGOS.

Save for later: New Testament Exegesis for Students and Pastors by Gordon Fee. I still use his method every time I prepare a sermon. It's amazing. Also, you don't have to know Greek to benefit from it.

Save for later: Exegetical Fallacies by D.A. Carson. Oh, man, this book is just amazing.

Basics of Verbal Aspect in New Testament Greek by Constantine Campbell. If you end up enjoying Greek and want to know why I say the basic grammars all teach tense incorrectly, this is the book to start with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
I just found THIS book (with the key) in my LOGOS library.

Maybe this is a good place to begin.
It's definitely worth starting there. If you get bored or annoyed, go get the Mounce pack and do it the old fashioned way.

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Unread 02-03-2017, 07:54 AM   #17
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Thanks for the insight.

I'm currently working through Mounce's Greek For The Rest Of Us until my tax money comes back and I can order the kit I mentioned.

I have LOGOS but I (like you) think I will benefit greater from having physical copies here on my desk.

So, I'm planning to buy one when I order the Mounce stuff.

If I'm going for the newer edition, which is the preferred? NA or USB? Since I already have the NA27 in LOGOS I'm thinking it might be good to have the USB 5 as well. A used copy (in "like new" condition) on Amazon for less than $30 (shipping included). The NA is about $40 (new and used).

Thoughts?
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Unread 02-03-2017, 08:02 AM   #18
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Wow. That was some amazing advice and information, Ted.

I need some resources beyond my current ones, so you gave me some good ideas.
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Unread 02-03-2017, 08:04 AM   #19
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Wow. That was some amazing advice and information, Ted.

I need some resources beyond my current ones, so you gave me some good ideas.
I was hoping he would chime in.

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Unread 02-03-2017, 09:42 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
Thanks for the insight.

I'm currently working through Mounce's Greek For The Rest Of Us until my tax money comes back and I can order the kit I mentioned.

I have LOGOS but I (like you) think I will benefit greater from having physical copies here on my desk.

So, I'm planning to buy one when I order the Mounce stuff.

If I'm going for the newer edition, which is the preferred? NA or USB? Since I already have the NA27 in LOGOS I'm thinking it might be good to have the USB 5 as well. A used copy (in "like new" condition) on Amazon for less than $30 (shipping included). The NA is about $40 (new and used).

Thoughts?
It really depends on what you hope to do with it. If you are primarily looking to read the Greek New Testament and understand why translators make the choices they do, they're of equal value, and the less-intrusive apparatus of UBS is a virtue. But if you think you might enjoy it enough to start doing some deeper textual criticism, you will eventually want Nestle-Aland. That said, since you have NA27 with the apparatus on LOGOS, it would not be difficult to do that work on your computer and your primary translation work in UBS 5.

I never really used UBS after I got NA, but then again, most of the time, I now do my Greek work in a Word document. I paste from Bibleworks into the Word document and set NA27 in front of me to look at the apparatus. My process looks like this:

1) Paste my text into Word
2) Create a text flow (sort of a simplified diagramming method to let you see the logical/narratival progression & relationships in the text)
3) Highlight in multiple colors
4) Print off the document on 11x17 paper
5) Mark up the paper with colored pencils & notes

I don't spend much time with the apparatus at all, btw. Most of the time, I end up agreeing with the NA/UBS or SBL text. I'm going to upload a photo of my Greek work so you can see what I do with it.
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Unread 02-03-2017, 09:52 AM   #21
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So usually I would have done more highlighting before printing, but this is a pretty good example of what I do with the text. Sometimes I write a wooden translation next to it. I took this photo about a week ago and have marked it up a lot more since, but it's at the Church sitting on my desk waiting for me to get back to it tomorrow.

The yellow lines connect the idea of sonship through words like "sons," "children," "heirs," and "coheirs."

The indentations indicate logical connections between thoughts. Some of it is subjective - maybe Paul was using this clause to modify this verb, or maybe that verb - but much of it is pretty objective.
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Unread 02-03-2017, 10:06 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Uptown Thrunk View Post
Wow. That was some amazing advice and information, Ted.

I need some resources beyond my current ones, so you gave me some good ideas.
There are more advanced grammars out there that I never use. Porter's Idioms of the Greek New Testament, Moulton's Grammar of the Greek New Testament, and whatever Robertson's is called, are used by PhD students and scholars but I almost entirely rely on good commentaries when it comes to those advanced grammatical things. But if you're working with Greek in the academy, Wallace is a stepping stone, not a finish line.
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Unread 02-03-2017, 11:24 AM   #23
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It really depends on what you hope to do with it.

My main desire is to be able to be a better student and preacher of the Bible.

I also want to get acquainted with Hebrew as well but I don't know that I can do both at the same time.


****EDIT****

I'm actually going to change this thread's title to Studying Biblical Languages so we can discuss Hebrew as well.
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Unread 02-03-2017, 02:31 PM   #24
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i was about to say, no one has said anything about hebrew yet!

i did NOT study greek or hebrew for my undergrad degree (they let me use my previous arabic classes instead, which looking back is kinda silly but was a blessing on my crazy tuition fees) and i did not study greek in seminary. i studied 2 quarters of hebrew language, then took 2 hebrew exegesis classes and 1 independent hebrew grammar class, and then studied biblical aramaic totally independently. (basically, i wrote translations of the aramaic portions of the OT and read them to my independent study prof, who graded them accordingly.)

my experience is skewed compared to your average english-speaking learner, but i'll share the resources we used in the classes i was in:

bhs (biblia hebraica stuttgartensia) is the standard biblical text - it's available online in PDF form, in print, and also searchable here: http://tanach.us/Tanach.xml

beginning biblical hebrew:
https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Bib.../dp/0801048869
**this is a fun way to ease in - it will take you through the different letters of the aleph-bet, and is actually two sided. left-to-right contains english grammar lessons, right-to-left is all hebrew translations (with comics) and in the center are the appendices and some sample verb charts

seow's grammar for biblical hebrew:
https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Bibli.../dp/0687157862
**definitely a regular grammar book, it seems to be THE book that everyone i know used. i have used parts of it, but relied on cook & holmstedt (above) for a wider scope of needs

laminated study sheet:
https://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Hebr...ZDKVYRSSB684F9
**a lot of my classmates used this. i did not.

guide to biblical hebrew syntax:
https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Biblica...ZDKVYRSSB684F9
**i relied on this quite a bit as well

for lexicons (should be available in logos):
brown-driver-briggs ("bdb") is standard
https://www.amazon.com/Brown-Driver-...3YYXHQECGJQY1W
**you can access much of the lexical content on bible hub, but beware of the hebrew-to-english translations...they are not always accurate, and sometimes they are WAY off

hebrew and aramaic lexicon of the old testament (halot):
https://www.amazon.com/Hebrew-Aramai...keywords=halot
**with bdb, you have to know the verbal root you're looking for in order to find the different spellings/forms - with halot, you don't. you just look it up the way it's written and voila, there it is.

the free duolingo app also has hebrew (written IN hebrew) but it's modern, so i'm not sure how much value you would find in it. however, it's cool if you want to try it out.

i have many more resources than what i listed above, but these are what you would find in a beginning-level hebrew class at fuller.

*edit: ALSO, i did not buy all of my books on amazon. i recommend doing a cost comparison between amazon and half.com if you're planning to make purchases. my HALOT set was around $80 on half, compared to the $299 on amazon or whatever. i mean, it's still a chunk of change, but it was worth the investment for me because this is my field of study. you may elect not to purchase them, or to access them through bible software, which is also a good choice if that works for you.
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Unread 02-04-2017, 08:50 AM   #25
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I have an equal number of Hebrew resources in LOGOS as I do Greek.

I still think I prefer to have physical copies of most of them.
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Unread 02-04-2017, 12:06 PM   #26
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Anyone have have recommendations for textual work software?

I have, of course, heard of Logos, BibleWorks, and BibleSoft. But, I've never taken the plunge, mainly because of how dang expensive they are.

Aaron, Im betting you have significant experience with several different types of Bible software. Lee, you have Logos, obvs. Beanbag, did you use any for your Hebrew and Aramaic work?
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Unread 02-05-2017, 08:09 AM   #27
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Anyone have have recommendations for textual work software?

I have, of course, heard of Logos, BibleWorks, and BibleSoft. But, I've never taken the plunge, mainly because of how dang expensive they are.

Aaron, Im betting you have significant experience with several different types of Bible software. Lee, you have Logos, obvs. Beanbag, did you use any for your Hebrew and Aramaic work?
I bought LOGOS when I was in school because students got it for about 40% off. It was still very expensive. I did get one of the higher end packages because of the discount. I wouldn't be able to afford it now.

The packages are tiered differently now than when I purchased it. At the time, mine was next to the highest you could get in the "Scholar" series. They have MANY more different bundles now than they did ten years ago. The cool thing is that I can upgrade mine. The software itself has changed over the years and I've gotten all the updates. You can also add books a la carte after buying the initial bundle.
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Unread 02-05-2017, 12:51 PM   #28
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i own some logos, but i have always preferred physical print. (i'm a bibliophile through and through.)

i feel like i wasted the money i spent on logos, but it is what it is. while i was a student, fuller entered into a partnership with bibleworks for discounts so our profs were asked to promote it, but many had invested heavily in logos (as had many of my classmates) so they "recommended" both. i don't think it was anything against bw, just that everyone had heavily invested in acquiring and learning logos. both have some good hebrew functionality, including generating passages in hebrew with proper formatting, but i preferred having my textbooks around me and actually hunting for the correct verbal roots. if i REALLY got stuck, i had an electronic cheatsheet on my ipad--i bought a verbal reference guide that has all of the verbs in every OT passage broken down by passage verb spelling, verbal root and binyan, as well as the BDB reference number. (BDB also cross-references with strongs, btw.) i can't recall the name of the book at the moment and i apparently deleted the nook app off my ipad, but if any of you are interested i will get online and find it, though i HIGHLY recommend the print version--it was not formatted well for e-readers and you can't really zoom. i bought a magnifying glass for it...no joke.

for the other things, like generating passages, i used the westminster leningrad link i shared. you can use different layers of complexity (just letters, with vowels added, with masoretic markings added) and sometimes copy-pasting into word is a pain if you need to make edits, but that is also true of stuff that is in english.

i suppose if one planned to generate a bunch of hebrew content or rely extensively on electronic versions of things the bible software is a good choice. for me, i lug around heavy books and prefer sitting in my (small) home library for things, and use electronic resources as needed.
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Unread 02-05-2017, 01:07 PM   #29
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I suppose what I'm really interested in with bible software is being able to make large searches so as to better compare certain phrases, and not only in biblical texts, but also extra-biblical texts.

So, paying attention to certain uses of, say, charis in certain NT books, but also noting how it is used in Seneca, LXX, Xenophanes, etc.
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Unread 02-05-2017, 02:19 PM   #30
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well, i can't comment on that functionality but i am fairly certain it exists. i would be surprised if it didn't.
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