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Unread 09-07-2016, 12:50 PM   #1
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Weird sexuality/gender questions + theology

First of all I am not at all an expert in any of the matters below, so I will most likely say something wrong. Also I apologize if this is a bit PG.

I've been thinking for a long time about how the whole LGBTQ94WV#+ should be handled as a Christian. I must admit it was so much easier many years ago when you had 2 genders and 2 sexual orientations (one right, one wrong according to churches). Now, I have stayed a bit distant to the whole discussion as I never felt I knew enough of any of the subjects to be able to formulate an argument. So now I am bringing all my doubts over here (yay! tldr time!)

To boil it down, my biggest question for theologians is:

- According to the bible: What is right, the brain/mind or the body/DNA? What constitutes Gods plan for us as a person?

Let me elaborate. If a friend is depressed , I pray that God may help them (a.k.a. change/heal? their mind) and I've never heard any objections in church of people taking antidepressants. This means that the mind can be altered in a certain way.

Now, if I have a bad heart, I get a heart transplant, or if I have physical pains, we can pray for that too. So our body can be altered (operations, etc.) without any complaint by the church.

So, first scenario. It is 2050. Little John says he wants to be a woman. Science is so advanced that we can make his brain want to be a man or we can change his body and DNA to a woman. My intuition says that the brain, but I have no argument to support that. Can the bible help with this question?

------------


This brings me to the next part. What determines your sex? Your DNA, your genitals, your brain or your sex at birth? (again according to the bible).

If it is your DNA or genitals, then intersex people (I was told that is the word for human hermaphrodites) can't marry as they would be with a person who might share the same chromosomes or reproductive organs. Can they get surgery to be more of one? If so which? Do they choose themselves?

If it is your DNA: I believe there is some kind of operation nowadays where a person can get the opposite genitals. Say I married someone who has gone through that process and I have no knowledge of it. The person still has male DNA. That opens the whole issue that you could be living in sin and would never find out. Would you go to hell? That would suck... Being tricked to live in sin and not even knowing about it.

Now the brain thing is very modern-liberal to me. It follows the whole "do what you want, be what you want" thing that doesn't align with the biblical principles IMO.

I was going to bring it up with some Christian friends, but they all have very opposite and strong views on these subjects, so I wanted to avoid a crazy conflict.

What IMO makes matters worse, is that a lot of this was medically seen as mental disorders, which made it easier as a christian, because if the problem is in your brain, I can pray that God changes that. That made the most sense to me. I found it very weird that it was changed, not due to the medical field saying so, but politicians.

Also seems a bit weird that intersex people can choose what they are (or is that not biblically correct). Do they have a special crown?

------

Tl;dr: What does the bible tell us about man/woman (determined by DNA, genitals or ...mind)?
What happens then with the intersex people?

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Unread 09-07-2016, 03:15 PM   #2
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Lots of good questions. I do intend to respond I just don't have the time at this very moment. If you can give me until tomorrow I will try to jump in.

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Unread 09-07-2016, 03:34 PM   #3
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Unread 09-07-2016, 03:49 PM   #4
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I'll say more later, but I just want to touch on something you said briefly

Quote:
If it is your DNA: I believe there is some kind of operation nowadays where a person can get the opposite genitals. Say I married someone who has gone through that process and I have no knowledge of it. The person still has male DNA. That opens the whole issue that you could be living in sin and would never find out. Would you go to hell? That would suck... Being tricked to live in sin and not even knowing about it.
This is a pretty legalistic understanding of what sin is. I can't speak for whatever tradition you come from, but sin as I understand it and as the Orthodox Church teaches is a turning away from God, a disordering of the human person and their desires away from communion with God and towards non-being (i.e. death, physically and spiritually) This is what 'the wages of sin is death' actually means: it's not a matter of God saying "if you sin, I will kill you". No - rather, sin's wages - i.e. the recompense that sin earns - is a continuous move away from the Source of life and being Himself. Viewed this way, the wages of sin is death because it is a moving away from the source of Life who sustains us.

If you thought you were living in a healthy Christian marriage and your partner was a transsexual the whole time, that would be something that would be on them to deal with, not you. Whether or not such a marriage is actually even possible, and the implications of transsexualism... I'll deal with later.
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Unread 09-07-2016, 05:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe View Post
First of all I am not at all an expert in any of the matters below, so I will most likely say something wrong.
That's okay, I don't think any of us really are. And at the risk of sounding cynical, it's becoming increasingly easier to say the wrong thing.

Quote:
I've been thinking for a long time about how the whole LGBTQ94WV#+ should be handled as a Christian. I must admit it was so much easier many years ago when you had 2 genders and 2 sexual orientations (one right, one wrong according to churches). Now, I have stayed a bit distant to the whole discussion as I never felt I knew enough of any of the subjects to be able to formulate an argument. So now I am bringing all my doubts over here (yay! tldr time!)
To preface everything I'm about to say, I just want to say that regardless of my views, the correct way to handle them is with love. However, I do get what you're actually asking and I know it's really hard to express that as a Christian without someone calling you a bigot.

Quote:
Let me elaborate. If a friend is depressed , I pray that God may help them (a.k.a. change/heal? their mind) and I've never heard any objections in church of people taking antidepressants. This means that the mind can be altered in a certain way.

Now, if I have a bad heart, I get a heart transplant, or if I have physical pains, we can pray for that too. So our body can be altered (operations, etc.) without any complaint by the church.

So, first scenario. It is 2050. Little John says he wants to be a woman. Science is so advanced that we can make his brain want to be a man or we can change his body and DNA to a woman. My intuition says that the brain, but I have no argument to support that. Can the bible help with this question?
Your first two situations are repairing a chemical fault that is making someone sick. But I see how you're working that into your scenario. To be honest, I don't personally see this as the same thing (and this is usually where I get into trouble in an argument because it sounds really insensitive), but how is this different to someone thinking they are a cat and trying to live as such? Or someone else thinking they are a disabled person trapped inside a normal person's body? Where do we draw that line?

Quote:
If it is your DNA or genitals, then intersex people (I was told that is the word for human hermaphrodites) can't marry as they would be with a person who might share the same chromosomes or reproductive organs. Can they get surgery to be more of one? If so which? Do they choose themselves?
I believe the idea is that if a child is identified as intersex when born (the estimate is 1/1500 at birth but it's one of those statistics that's becoming increasingly skewed with progressive media) then the doctor will attempt to assign them the sex of their most dominant gender characteristic and I believe there are surgeries that aid this.

Quote:
If it is your DNA: I believe there is some kind of operation nowadays where a person can get the opposite genitals. Say I married someone who has gone through that process and I have no knowledge of it. The person still has male DNA. That opens the whole issue that you could be living in sin and would never find out. Would you go to hell? That would suck... Being tricked to live in sin and not even knowing about it.
Just remember God is a god of grace: I doubt He would condemn you for something you honestly did not know.

Quote:
Now the brain thing is very modern-liberal to me. It follows the whole "do what you want, be what you want" thing that doesn't align with the biblical principles IMO.
1 Corinthians 10

Quote:
What IMO makes matters worse, is that a lot of this was medically seen as mental disorders, which made it easier as a christian, because if the problem is in your brain, I can pray that God changes that. That made the most sense to me. I found it very weird that it was changed, not due to the medical field saying so, but politicians.
There is still a lot of debate about this, and many people pushing that it is not a mental thing.

Quote:
Tl;dr: What does the bible tell us about man/woman (determined by DNA, genitals or ...mind)?
What happens then with the intersex people?
Intersex is a really weird issue, because I daresay the numbers were wayyyyyyyyyy lower back then, so the Bible doesn't really talk about it (but I could be mistaken).

That said, in regards to gender swapping, Deuteronomy 22:5 says that a woman should not wear men's clothing and vice versa. I'm guessing the more literal translation may pertain to issues of transgender today.

Again, not a theologian. Just going off what I can ascertain. But I'd be interested to hear what everyone else reckons.

EDIT: I also forgot to add this interview of a former transgender who reverted because it didn't solve the problems he thought it would (Trigger warning: he's being interviewed by Steven Crowder):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7NYWd7p-zE
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Unread 09-08-2016, 08:06 AM   #6
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The legal implications of this topic are staggering. Businesses and universities give weight and preference to certain races and genders. Making this criteria a subjective shade of gray causes a whole lot of potential legal problems.
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Unread 09-08-2016, 12:43 PM   #7
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Thanks for taking the time to answer guys. I am a bit tired to write a long text, but I appreciate it.
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Unread 09-09-2016, 12:05 AM   #8
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As one being interested in linguistics I'd like to put forth that sex and gender are not considered the same thing in the current age. You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_an...er_distinction .

I am not able to form a complete response at the moment, but I thought I'd point this distinction out (though I think it is unpopular with many Christians that I know, and therefore might be fairly unpopular here as well). I think that we should be clear on our definitions when discussing such topics, as it can make a world of difference.
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Unread 09-09-2016, 01:02 AM   #9
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I for one don't think the distinction is as crazy as many Christians think it is.
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Unread 09-23-2016, 01:53 AM   #10
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Newb ... be gentle, please

I read the above thread with great interest, as I live in a country with few Bible-believing, churchgoing, God-trusting people. I admit a great ignorance of modern thinking about all this ... but TBH, the entire -ism seems like a joke to me.

And I couldn't help noticing that there is a hesitancy to state thoughts ... so instead of thinking too much, I'll just jump in and say that weird sexuality is just that. Weird.

I am blessed that I don't have to answer to anyone with a political agenda or public image to protect. My church started in my living room, after we could not stand trying to worship in a place that had to kowtow to a committee of religious people 10,000 km away. My only "agenda" is that of my Lord and Savior.

His word doesn't seem to mess around with "alternative sexuality" ... but extends grace to those entrapped by sin. But God does not "tolerate" sin or measure "propriety" by a calendar or even an epoch. So why should we? I will answer that ... because we are afraid of our image as a religious institution. I was tempted some time ago to institutionalize our fellowship, so that we could "bring more people in, connect to a larger group, broaden our appeal" ... meh to that! But I can still talk to a homosexual (or anyone trapped in sin) with love and grace, and ask the Lord to give specific words to that person. I don't even try to make a set approach to the problem ... each person, each time, is brought to Him in prayer. And He answers.

I'm afraid that we will all be called bigots if we express Christ. Aren't we warned of that?

Blessings to all, and please correct me if I am wrong.

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Unread 09-23-2016, 01:15 PM   #11
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The hesitation on my end is that, even though I have read a lot on the matter and weighed the issues in light of Scripture, I'm still unsure how to navigate it all. So little is actually said in Scripture about it. A lot can be gleaned from extra-biblical literature (commentaries, ANE studies, etc.) about the context and such of gender issues, but --of course-- these are not Scripture.

That, and I do have gay and trans friends/colleagues. So, I'm trying to be discerning without compromising Christian commitments nor just repeating American conservative cultural assumptions.
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Unread 09-23-2016, 06:58 PM   #12
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The hesitation on my end is that, even though I have read a lot on the matter and weighed the issues in light of Scripture, I'm still unsure how to navigate it all. So little is actually said in Scripture about it. A lot can be gleaned from extra-biblical literature (commentaries, ANE studies, etc.) about the context and such of gender issues, but --of course-- these are not Scripture.

That, and I do have gay and trans friends/colleagues. So, I'm trying to be discerning without compromising Christian commitments nor just repeating American conservative cultural assumptions.
Thanks for the reply athanatos!

I have a strong opinion about this because there are so few Scriptures! ... but I have come to the conclusion that they are clear. Simplicity should win this battle, and I cannot imagine any reason for the Scripture to dwell on it ... which would probably lead to more "innovative dilution" of God's word.

I have an advantage here regarding this issue, simply because I am new! I don't like stepping on toes, an if I knew you all more, your opinions and ideas, I might be more hesitant myself!

I have another advantage in that I have no organization asking me to be diplomatic, no political agenda, and I certainly could not fit into any particular liberal or conservative category (that I am aware of). I was once part of a great church in Pennsylvania, but several years after I came to Japan they began to institutionalize their beliefs ... until they became for all intents and purposes, a cult. It was subtle and gradual, but when faced with submission to strict fundamentalism, I refused ... and was summarily "disfellowshipped" and shunned. I had to reassess my beliefs, and to do that, fellowship with a wide array of Christian types. I found the liberals - both spiritually and doctrinally - shallow and nearly as judgmental as the fundamentalists! After quite a few years of prayer, reading the word, discussion, and even moderating a Christian Bible forum, I settled some basic things, and weird sexuality was one of them.

I have to note here that I really sought the Holy Spirit in these matters, not just decided on a whim. I believe that we must have a conviction about such matters, and live them out in faith. At the same time, I have not written down all my doctrinal decisions, nor chiseled them in stone. If some overwhelming revelation came to me, and was confirmed in some way that I knew it was the mind of God, I will repent. But should we be swayed by public opinion, or even personal friendship? No.

The Bible speaks pretty clearly about double-mindedness and the lukewarm spirit. We are also warned that in the last days sin and confusion will cause even the elect could be led astray. I will take a chance that clarity of mind is preferable to muddiness.

Another thought: if every minister of the Gospel were to take a stand on this issue in the simplicity of those few Scriptures, how many would be persecuted out of their jobs? This is not a challenge, but simply to show that our convictions can be swayed by fear of livelihood.

I probably could write a lot more, but it is Saturday morning, and I must prepare for Sunday. I will NOT be preaching about homosexuality! (Most folks know my ideas ... and still come!)

I must admit, I did not expect a can of worms on a guitar site! (unless it was about vintage-correct glue for setnecks )

Grace to all in Christ Jesus,

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Unread 09-26-2016, 11:17 AM   #13
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Cj, Thanks for the reply. I see you're new here, and I hope you stick around (we haven't had a lot of newcomers arrive, except to disseminate some pet heresies and then leave). I'm glad you're posting in various forums too.

I appreciate the humility you seem to convey in relying on Scripture and the Holy Spirit's guidance. There is often a lack of that, and too often people just reject tradition.

That said, I'm pretty sure the lukewarm reference doesn't have to do with being unsure about some spiritual matter. Double-minded, though, probably refers to where your allegiance lies (with God or some idol), rather than your confidence level on some debated topic. Of course, we're called to act in a way that reflects careful meditation and reliance on God's word.


Now for the topic. Here's me heaping a large serving of a can of worms. We're given a few passage that are explicit that God intended for there to be two sexes - male, female. That's not only given in the creation account, it's what is in mind at the new creation (Flood), carrying over from the "world that then was" into the new order. Yet, after the resurrection, in the New Heavens and New Earth, sexual identity is no longer expressed in marriage and sexual union, but instead we will be "like the angels."

So, that about summarizes what God's intention is for humankind, right?

Not so fast. The curse in the meantime is expressed in disorder: people have physical brokenness which is not resultant of personal sin (e.g., the man born blind; the man with the withered hand, the woman unclean from a never-ending blood flow), brokenness/defects that prevented them from being ceremonially clean or entrance into the normal rites of worship. The paradigm case here I want to emphasize is that males may be born eunuchs, and this is a physical disorder that has a profound impact on how he functions in the community. He will not be a father. He will not be a priest. He will never produce grand children (there's no social security from progeny; in his old age he may need to have non-family support him, care for him, etc.). ... This is, I think, clearly a result of the Fall, but not itself sinful.

Likewise with those who are "made eunuchs". This was done in times of war/subjugation. The males cannot produce heirs, they would instead be dedicated for service. Bodyguards to the queen was commonly performed by eunuchs.

But what about hermaphrodites? Or, as they are called today, "intersex". [Young readers warning: some of what I will be discussing involves the topic of sex. I will give some vivid descriptions of anatomy, but not sexual acts] Here's a pretty good source about how common intersex is: link and their definition is good too (it isn't unnecessarily biased; when it comes to the "humans decide" part I'll disagree to some extent, but their approach makes sense). In any case, hermaphrodites don't have the physical anatomy where it is clear (or possible?) to simply say it is male or female. Whether you're looking at the shape of the genitals, or the DNA and chromosomes, or secondary-sex characteristics, considering them male or female starts to be problematic.

I think this is a case of the "Vagueness Problem", or a Sorites Paradox. The paradigm vaguess case is, "When does a lot of hay become a heap? Just one piece? 10 pieces? 11 pieces?" You know it's a heap when you get to 10,000 pieces of hay, but ... what about 100 pieces? There's, perhaps, a fact of the matter. Part of it is that the terms we use is vague, and that the fact of the matter just needs a more precise word.

So, sex characteristics admit of this variation and vagueness problem. When does "male" apply to physical characteristics? When does "female" apply to physical characteristics? When there's an elongated protrusion? Sometimes, it's not much of a protusion. When there's labia? Sometimes, there's fanning out but no open canal. When there's testes? When there are ovaries? Sometimes the testes are receded into the abdomen like ovaries.

This isn't to say that there is no fact of the matter, but we need to be able to handle these cases with care, where sexual characteristics may suggest male, but the person is hormonally female; likewise, they may suggest female, but the person is hormonally male.

There's more to sexual identity than behavior too. It is a big blend of varying levels of behavior patterns, physical reproductive characteristics, social group inclusion, hormonal balances and patterns.

I think we can affirm that God made humans male and female, all the while being able to talk about humans with privation and brokenness. This needs to be handled with care, and simply saying that "you're either male or female, and that's the end of the story" won't serve the church well. I'm not saying that you, CJ, are doing this. I am saying that discernment and careful handling will need to take these things into account. A Christian who looks at sexual identity (whether physical characteristics or "gender") as black and white is not being sufficiently sensitive.
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Unread 09-27-2016, 01:12 AM   #14
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I think we can affirm that God made humans male and female, all the while being able to talk about humans with privation and brokenness. This needs to be handled with care, and simply saying that "you're either male or female, and that's the end of the story" won't serve the church well. I'm not saying that you, CJ, are doing this. I am saying that discernment and careful handling will need to take these things into account. A Christian who looks at sexual identity (whether physical characteristics or "gender") as black and white is not being sufficiently sensitive.
Well said, Athanatos.

(the whole thing, I just cut the rest off for brevity)

I fully believe in case-by-case assessment. I have read of folks that really stretch the boundaries of physical division, but never come across one. I have also read of several situations that seem to lend credence to some kind of internal genetic imbalance ... but never crossed paths with that either. I have also read a LOT of malarkey about confused sexuality as part of God's design ... and I just don't believe it. While I can understand a genetic mutation, and would do all in my power to help and support an individual and/or family deal with it in grace, it would take a lot to convince me of an invisible, internal mutation. But I would listen, and I would pray for guidance from Above. In my humble estimation, the vast majority of such problems are psychological, and some may even be psychosomatic ... but true gender confusion is a rare thing. Rare as it may be, even then, God's grace is sufficient to bring hope and faith to the individual, family, and the local church. I don't see any reason at all to make rules to "cover" every sexual situation ... such rules would steal away any case-by-case discernment!

I believe in case-by-case assessment for ALL situations. My fellowship does not have a written code or "church-Talmud" to reconcile things in advance. We greet things as they sent our way.

This is probably as close to any theology or doctrinal statement as I can make.

Blessings!

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Unread 09-27-2016, 05:38 AM   #15
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I dont have anything constructive to add, except that it is nice to see respectful conversation happening around a very difficult topic to discuss in mixed company.


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