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Unread 08-08-2016, 06:58 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
Actually, I don't think you can definitively say that it was created to make hearts glad. I know those verses but I think that is stretching it a bit.
How is it stretching to say that wine is to gladden the heart of man.

When has the universal Church ever condemned drinking in moderation?

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Unread 08-09-2016, 07:11 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by IsaactheSyrian View Post
How is it stretching to say that wine is to gladden the heart of man.

When has the universal Church ever condemned drinking in moderation?
I didn't say that isn't one of the things it can be used for. All I'm saying is that I don't think we can definitively say that was the original purpose.

I don't condemn drinking in moderation either.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 07:57 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
I didn't say that isn't one of the things it can be used for. All I'm saying is that I don't think we can definitively say that was the original purpose.

I don't condemn drinking in moderation either.
Let's discuss it, then. Psalm 104 -- Earlier verses talk about God as glorious Master and then as artful Creator. The lines immediately before talk about how God basically cares for his creatures well: "the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work."

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Originally Posted by Psalm 104
[14] You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
[15] and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
and bread to strengthen manís heart.
Man is given plants -- apparently in order that he might be satisfied too -- raising veggies, making gladdening wine, extracting oils, and baking bread.

Then it goes on to talk about more examples of God creating and sustaining creation. There is purpose (a teleology) coupled with many of the lines of the Psalm; in other words, these things are given because God intended them to be used that way. Then the scope of the Psalm widens quickly, and how everything should give God glory.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 08:05 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by athanatos View Post
Let's discuss it, then. Psalm 104 -- Earlier verses talk about God as glorious Master and then as artful Creator. The lines immediately before talk about how God basically cares for his creatures well: "the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work."



Man is given plants -- apparently in order that he might be satisfied too -- raising veggies, making gladdening wine, extracting oils, and baking bread.

Then it goes on to talk about more examples of God creating and sustaining creation. There is purpose (a teleology) coupled with many of the lines of the Psalm; in other words, these things are given because God intended them to be used that way. Then the scope of the Psalm widens quickly, and how everything should give God glory.
Could we use this same passage to approve the use of marijuana?

Once again, I'm not condemning the use of alcohol. My original intent with this thread was to suggest we need to be extremely careful when using it.

I know the Proverbs talk about giving wine and strong drink to those who are perishing. I know that there are legitimate uses.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 08:14 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
Could we use this same passage to approve the use of marijuana?
No. Then we would be stretching the context.

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Once again, I'm not condemning the use of alcohol. My original intent with this thread was to suggest we need to be extremely careful when using it.
And in the context of this verse alcohol was designed to make hearts glad.

Quote:
I know the Proverbs talk about giving wine and strong drink to those who are perishing. I know that there are legitimate uses.
To those who are perishing, a little wine for one's stomach, make hearts glad, communion... There are many uses for alcohol. It's the perversion of the purpose and abuse of it that is wrong.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 08:16 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
Could we use this same passage to approve the use of marijuana?

Once again, I'm not condemning the use of alcohol. My original intent with this thread was to suggest we need to be extremely careful when using it.

I know the Proverbs talk about giving wine and strong drink to those who are perishing. I know that there are legitimate uses.
I realize you're not condemning alcohol use. You mentioned that it doesn't need to be read the way that Ryan was taking it, so I thought it would be a good idea to look at the actual verse and its context.

As for marijuana, I don't think that the verse has that in view, but maybe the verse's implications could extend to that. I would rather discuss that in a different thread, though. What do you think?
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Unread 08-09-2016, 08:31 AM   #37
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I realize you're not condemning alcohol use. You mentioned that it doesn't need to be read the way that Ryan was taking it, so I thought it would be a good idea to look at the actual verse and its context.

As for marijuana, I don't think that the verse has that in view, but maybe the verse's implications could extend to that. I would rather discuss that in a different thread, though. What do you think?
I don't even know if I want to discuss that. It just came to mind when you mentioned plants.



I don't know that anyone was suggesting this, but I have heard people claim that God made alcohol for various reasons. They use texts like the ones we're discussing. I'm just wondering if God actively created it or if man was just smart enough (because of his God-given intelligence) to figure out how to do it. I also believe that if it isn't abused then it isn't sinful to use. It, like sex, has been distorted to the point that it causes so much damage and pain.

Like I said, I am not personally against the consumption of it.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 09:52 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Leboman View Post
I don't know that anyone was suggesting this, but I have heard people claim that God made alcohol for various reasons. They use texts like the ones we're discussing. I'm just wondering if God actively created it or if man was just smart enough (because of his God-given intelligence) to figure out how to do it.
Interesting question. Not sure what I think.

Since God knows all things and had intentions for creation that weren't realized at creation, such as governance, child rearing, cooking, etc., it seems to me that God intended the means to ends, and that humanity would recognize those ends and the means by which they can attain them. I wouldn't want to go too far, though, suggesting that anything man makes God intended that they should be made, such as metal shackles or guns.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 10:17 AM   #39
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I would be interested in reading a separate thread on the morality of legal marijuana use, since I don't think that's a discussion we've had on this site before.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 12:35 PM   #40
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Interesting question. Not sure what I think.

Since God knows all things and had intentions for creation that weren't realized at creation, such as governance, child rearing, cooking, etc., it seems to me that God intended the means to ends, and that humanity would recognize those ends and the means by which they can attain them. I wouldn't want to go too far, though, suggesting that anything man makes God intended that they should be made, such as metal shackles or guns.
Does Satan have the ability to guide us down the wrong path scientifically, medically, or technologically?

Of course, that's probably a different thread as well.

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Unread 08-09-2016, 01:39 PM   #41
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Snarky comment below:

Wine gladdens the heart of a wounded soldier during the War of 1812 before an operation.

However, I wonder if we could agree that it doesn't necessarily gladden the heart as suppressing other feelings therefore making it feel more joyful, but doing nothing for the long term.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 04:54 PM   #42
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Snarky comment below:

Wine gladdens the heart of a wounded soldier during the War of 1812 before an operation.

However, I wonder if we could agree that it doesn't necessarily gladden the heart as suppressing other feelings therefore making it feel more joyful, but doing nothing for the long term.
Can you back this up with Scripture? The abuse of alcohol is definitely sinful, but there are clear permitted ways to consume alcohol that are a gift of God to men.
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Unread 08-09-2016, 07:51 PM   #43
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Can you back this up with Scripture? The abuse of alcohol is definitely sinful, but there are clear permitted ways to consume alcohol that are a gift of God to men.
Back what up with Scripture? The fact that alcohol was used as an early form of pain relief? Or the idea that Scripture that said it gladdened the heart?

I admit, I would need to research it more, but from an emotional standpoint I could see alcohol as being beneficial as it takes the edge off. Isn't that what everyone always says? I would have to dig deeper into exactly what the history of gladdened is and the idea behind it.

I'm not arguing whether or not you can have or can't have a drink. I'm simply stating that (to me, at first glance) the alcohol would only change your emotions. It cannot change your joy. I would relate it more to happiness which is guided by feelings versus joy which is rooted in Christ and a fruit of the Spirit. I'm not sure alcohol can produce joy as it is not the Holy Spirit.
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Unread 08-10-2016, 12:51 AM   #44
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from an emotional standpoint I could see alcohol as being beneficial as it takes the edge off.
I'm curious to see what others think of this in harmony with scripture. I remember people from my college saying that even this was a sinful approach to alcohol because "1 Peter 5:8" and "Psalm 121"; the idea being that any dependence on alcohol to assist your well-being would be considered idolatrous because it means you're not relying on God. In a way, I can see this logic. In another way, Jesus never condemned people for spending their time and money on medicine in hopes of getting better so I while I can see this logic, I can't see it holding its own. Personally, I obviously don't fall into that category as I regularly sip on some bourbon or brandy after a night of work.
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Unread 08-10-2016, 06:35 AM   #45
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Maybe I should've phrased my question a little better.

What makes it gladden the heart? How can you tell? Aren't all of these based upon the emotions? Or, would you say, there is something Spiritual connected to it?
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