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Unread 05-10-2016, 10:55 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by IsaactheSyrian View Post
Could you clarify that a bit, V?
Rome was generally regarded as first among equals among the leadership of the convened local churches for administrative (and — let's face it — political) purposes. So if an appeal over a given disagreement was made, Rome was the neutral third party that would help clarify or judge the matter.

As time went on, Rome began to self-understand that arrangement as Rome having the ability to assert authority over the other local churches.

When the representatives of Rome — notably though, not all of the Popes at the time — began to say as much, the leadership of the other local churches (the Pentarchy, if you will) resisted the notion because it wasn't what they had believed or understood through the first 700-1000 years of church history. As each side dug in their heels, it led to schism.

That's the incredibly simplified version of it.

And history is much more messy than RC and OC apologists often represent it. For example, even after Constantinople and Rome broke communion in 1054, some he other churches still maintained some kind of relationship with Rome for the next couple of hundreds of years. Antioch was the last holdout (I think), but the Council of Florence —_an attempted reunion — was the final break.

But the easiest boiling down of history is that Rome began to claim more authority for itself than the other churches ever understood it to have.

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Unread 05-10-2016, 11:25 AM   #47
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My biggest hangup is why God would give us this word and not lay out the other parts of what he wanted us to follow. Why didn't Jesus give us more leadership on what the church should look like? Why doesn't the Holy Spirit lead us toward a more common ground?
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Unread 05-10-2016, 11:31 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProdigalModern View Post
Rome was generally regarded as first among equals among the leadership of the convened local churches for administrative (and — let's face it — political) purposes. So if an appeal over a given disagreement was made, Rome was the neutral third party that would help clarify or judge the matter.

As time went on, Rome began to self-understand that arrangement as Rome having the ability to assert authority over the other local churches.

When the representatives of Rome — notably though, not all of the Popes at the time — began to say as much, the leadership of the other local churches (the Pentarchy, if you will) resisted the notion because it wasn't what they had believed or understood through the first 700-1000 years of church history. As each side dug in their heels, it led to schism.

That's the incredibly simplified version of it.

And history is much more messy than RC and OC apologists often represent it. For example, even after Constantinople and Rome broke communion in 1054, some he other churches still maintained some kind of relationship with Rome for the next couple of hundreds of years. Antioch was the last holdout (I think), but the Council of Florence —_an attempted reunion — was the final break.

But the easiest boiling down of history is that Rome began to claim more authority for itself than the other churches ever understood it to have.
Ah, yes. I was mostly just trying to get you to clarify that one phrase, but that's a very fulsome explanation.

It's also worth pointing tot the siege of Constantinople in 1204 with the Pope's full blessing. Needless to say, blessing a Crusader army to go and sack a Christian city are not the actions of a church that wants to patiently work within the bounds of brotherly communion - they are the actions of a bully that wants to impose itself when (and this is the critical bit, I think) Alexandria, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Antioch (and in a couple hundred years from that time we might add Moscow to that list) have already said "You have overstepped your boundaries, Rome"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbrownlula
My biggest hangup is why God would give us this word and not lay out the other parts of what he wanted us to follow. Why didn't Jesus give us more leadership on what the church should look like? Why doesn't the Holy Spirit lead us toward a more common ground?
Because He entrusted what that Church should look like to the Apostles, who appointed successors from amongst their flocks (for example, St. Linus of Rome, who is probably the same Linus mentioned in 2 Titus 4:21, was the second Bishop of Rome after St. Peter) in order to continue their ministry. This is where the Church's teaching authority inhered: in its bishops and the presbyters (priests) whom they oversaw.

The Church grew organically out of the ministry of the Apostles.
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Last edited by IsaactheSyrian; 05-10-2016 at 12:05 PM.
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Unread 05-10-2016, 12:20 PM   #49
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To answer your question a few posts up, though - the Orthodox would say that, while Rome didn't 'start a new church', per se (that charge is accurate re: the Protestants, but not, strictly speaking, with Rome), she did establish new doctrine (her own infallibility and ultra-primacy, the filioque, and other things) and basically separate herself from the rest of the Church (four of the five ancient churches (again, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Constantinople - and later, Moscow) rejected Rome's self-aggrandizement).

It's Rome who's in schism, not us.
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Unread 05-16-2016, 12:28 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by jwbrownlula View Post
My biggest hangup is why God would give us this word and not lay out the other parts of what he wanted us to follow. Why didn't Jesus give us more leadership on what the church should look like? Why doesn't the Holy Spirit lead us toward a more common ground?
That's not God's fault--that's the human tendency to mess things up.
Yet God still works through us, and our biggest mess ups don't stop Him.

That said--Mary was the mother of Jesus, she did become a believer at some point in her life, but she wasn't some superhuman or supersaint. (No mere human is)

There are a lot of things that the Catholic church teaches about Mary (I grew up in the Catholic church & was taught them) that I disagree with.
But the differences between Protestant & Catholic--especially as things stood at th time of the Reformation did come down to authority & Justification.

Those are the biggest things & the Catholic beliefs on Mary fall under those categories.
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