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Unread 05-07-2016, 04:52 PM   #31
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Fair enough, Aaron. That's what this all boils down to, after all. I've read through some of James White's debates with Roman Catholics on this subject, but quite frankly there's a lot there to process, and reading too much White gives me a headache.

I appreciated your concession above that the assumption of the Theotokos into heaven is at least biblically feasible, as it's happened before in Holy Scripture (re: Elijah). I hadn't even thought of that, but it's a good point!

The understanding regarding the Dormition of the Mother of God is that the account comes out of a local tradition which had been passed down by the Church of Jerusalem, where she lived and finally reposed.

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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
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Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
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Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.


Last edited by IsaactheSyrian; 05-07-2016 at 05:17 PM.
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Unread 05-09-2016, 07:18 AM   #32
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I would really like to read it Ted. I forgot to mention that I have attended a few catholic services. One in Peru was my favorite. I couldn't understand the words, but I felt that the people had a strong love of God. I did see a mix of catholicism with pagan customs mixed in by the locals throughout their beliefs. It was a very different place. I left there fairly confused. It did stir my thoughts about what must one do to be saved. What hope is there for a place with so much wrong teaching. My only peace is that God is just and will deal out righteous judgement.
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Unread 05-09-2016, 08:09 AM   #33
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A Defense of Sola Scriptura - Christian Research Institute
This article was easily understood. I'm interested in the opposing viewpoint also.
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Unread 05-09-2016, 08:14 AM   #34
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Why Sola Scriptura Doesn't Work
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Unread 05-09-2016, 08:16 AM   #35
and you were wondering??
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Logan View Post
I wrote a really long response on my work laptop yesterday, defending Protestantism and sola scriptura, then I closed my laptop and have been in non-stop dad mode ever since. I think when I open my work laptop later, I'll probably just delete it.

TL;DR version: sola scriptura is absolutely a tradition. We just hold that it's a biblical one. All true doctrines are also traditions. Likewise, the perspicuity of the Scriptures. I might say more at some point, but maybe not.
I'd like to hear what you have to say Ted, FWIW.

When I went through my undergrad Hermeneutics courses there was a strong Sola Scriptura emphasis, along with connected Protestant cores, like perspicuity, I find myself on the other side of the divide in recent years. Though, this isn't to say my mind is fully made up, especially as these sorts of things haven't really been a part of what I pay attention to anymore (though, mostly because of time constraints, and the simple fact that one has to start *somewhere* in a project, and investigating these issues just would be too much of a load for me).
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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Unread 05-09-2016, 08:17 AM   #36
and you were wondering??
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Originally Posted by jwbrownlula View Post
A Defense of Sola Scriptura - Christian Research Institute
This article was easily understood. I'm interested in the opposing viewpoint also.
Thanks for posting.

I used to read a lot of stuff by CRI, and I generally like Hank Hannegraff's ministry. The guy is a truly caring, respectful, and knowledgable guy.
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Taylor, you just got drive-by theologied.
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Unread 05-09-2016, 05:21 PM   #37
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No problem. If I run across anything else that's good I'll put it on.
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Unread 05-09-2016, 05:29 PM   #38
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The second to last sentence in that "Catholic Basic Training" article is fairly poignant...

"Thirdly, sola and solo scriptura are completely identical. If an authority is not authoritative, then what is the point of it? If it can be disregarded, then what weight does it carry? The answer is it carries none – which is precisely the claim of sola scriptura!"

To wit: saying that Scripture must be placed in judgement over the words of the Fathers, the decisions of church Councils, etc, basically leads to the notion that if you (and a bunch of people who agree with you, though this isn't necessary) disagree with the historic Church on some issue, you can run off and start your own church.

The heresies of ages past didn't come out of people deciding to disregard the Scriptures. Rather, they arose from people who understood Scripture differently from the mind of the catholic Church* and split off from Her bosom over it. Monophysites, Arians, Nestorians, iconoclasts, and more - all these people thought they knew better than the mind of the Church.The idea of "just me and my Bible and Jesus", no matter how you slice it, is the mother of all heresies.

*
note that I don't mean the Roman church here
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.

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Unread 05-09-2016, 05:31 PM   #39
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Protestants and a Churchless Tradition: "Solo" vs Sola Scriptura

is heavily cited in this article:

Solo versus Sola Scriptura: What's the Difference?



Quote:
In the end the differences between Fundamentalism’s solo scriptura and high church Evangelicalism’s sola scriptura are inconsequential. It is like the difference between the practical, plainly dressed Fundamentalist who likes Hal Lindsey and Charles Stanley and his upscale hip Evangelical cousin who likes Henri Nouwen, G.K. Chesterton, and Alexander Schmemann. Having descended from the same Protestant family tree they both retain their individualistic autonomy. Even the Reformed Christian who recently discovers the church fathers and believes in the real presence in the Eucharist do so as a matter of individual choice. There is not the slightest ecclesiastical consequence for wholesale rejection of the historic Church’s view of bishop rule, the Seven Ecumenical Councils, the Liturgy and Eucharist. Each denomination (individual?) can have their own unique view of these things.

For Protestants church is a place of fellowship and mutual encouragement, a temporary rest spot before moving on. Tragically absent in Evangelicalism is the biblical understanding of the Church as “the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15) Orthodoxy affirms it is the one holy catholic and apostolic Church confessed in the Nicene Creed. This is something most Evangelicals and Protestants would hesitate to affirm about their particular denomination. Most Evangelicals have no problem with the notion of an invisible Church, but this leaves them with no concrete authoritative Church here on earth to guide them and provide them safe shelter from heresies.
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.


Last edited by IsaactheSyrian; 05-09-2016 at 05:47 PM.
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Unread 05-10-2016, 06:08 AM   #40
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To wit: saying that Scripture must be placed in judgement over the words of the Fathers, the decisions of church Councils, etc, basically leads to the notion that if you (and a bunch of people who agree with you, though this isn't necessary) disagree with the historic Church on some issue, you can run off and start your own church.

^isn't this what the Orthodox church did?
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Unread 05-10-2016, 06:24 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbrownlula View Post
To wit: saying that Scripture must be placed in judgement over the words of the Fathers, the decisions of church Councils, etc, basically leads to the notion that if you (and a bunch of people who agree with you, though this isn't necessary) disagree with the historic Church on some issue, you can run off and start your own church.

^isn't this what the Orthodox church did?
No

Please explain your reasoning here.
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.

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Unread 05-10-2016, 08:02 AM   #42
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That was what my perspective on it was. They thought what the rcc was doing was unbiblical and against church tradition so they split. Not trying to offend lol. I know how hard it must be to have to explain this.
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Unread 05-10-2016, 08:32 AM   #43
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If there was no protestant reformation, I would most definitely be orthodox. Orthodox Christianity was a forerunner for the reformation from what I have read in that it showed that papal authority WAS to be questioned. I think the history of the Orthodox church is one of my new favorite studies.
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Unread 05-10-2016, 09:25 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbrownlula View Post
If there was no protestant reformation, I would most definitely be orthodox. Orthodox Christianity was a forerunner for the reformation from what I have read in that it showed that papal authority WAS to be questioned. I think the history of the Orthodox church is one of my new favorite studies.
Our side of the aisle would said that it maintained that papal authority wasn't what Rome represented.

IOW, Rome was the forerunner of the Reformation because it adopted a practice that needed to be corrected.
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Unread 05-10-2016, 10:15 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by TheProdigalModern View Post
... it maintained that papal authority wasn't what Rome represented.
Could you clarify that a bit, V?

Also, I think this thread needs to be split, badly.
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.

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