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Unread 06-02-2016, 08:14 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysostom View Post
"So-called" denotes a common-use term, in this case that appears otherwise to be a descriptor.

And yes, I know what it means. Typically the terminology is used to reify a contrast between Anglican and Puritan liturgical practice, though it has less currency than the term "regulative principle."
Thank you for clarifying

[/quote]Presumably there's a typo in here. "Anything that goes against direct Scriptural mandate" would be rejected by Cranmer as readily as by Greenville seminary today. Neither tradition of liturgical practice would be opposed to flying in an airplane. And the 1500 years of Christians who preceded both might have their own convictions.[/quote]

As I said in a previous post, most Christians function in the middle, using the 2 as extreme bookends. Al inerrantists can agree that we should 1) DO what the Bible commands TO do and 2) NOT DO what the Bible commands us NOT to do.

Most people today who hug the regulative line hug the Spirit over the Letter of the law in cases like transportation and modern science, BUT there are some cultures (Amish for example) that were founded on the extreme view of the regulative principle.

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Right. So what relation might it bear to Maundy Thursday, in one proposal?


The desire to feel psycho-social closeness to Abraham's elder children is insufficient reason for ministers circumcise our children or present burnt offerings of our lambs; there must be something deeper, and probably it must fit within the rhythms of the liturgical year.

You have to have the feast make some sense ritualistically while distinguishing it from Maundy Thursday. I'm not saying that can't be done. I am saying that you haven't yet given any attribute of a Seder-inspired Christian feast that does.

When, why, and how doesn't Maundy Thursday already do the same thing? I know how to answer the comparable questions for a Purim-inspired Christian festival. I don't for a Seder-inspired feast.
I will be completely honest in saying I know nothing about the Maundy Thursday feast (as well as most Roman Catholic teaching; in fact, until recently I thought the "immaculate conception" described Christ's own virgin conception, and I have never run into another non-Catholic who didn't think the same way).

My GUESS based on what I do know about Catholicism is that most "rituals" in most "religions" are MUST DO's, and I am arguing for a CAN DO event that simply allows us to remember and respect a past tradition from a "completed/fulfilled" religion that always pointed to the soon-to-be established covenant of grace over works.

Think of it also as a educational experience where Christians can learn about something they never fully knew (since most Christians don't celebrate Passover) that could lead to a deeper understand of God and further glorifying His great wisdom and sovereignty.

***ALL IN ALL***

What I am arguing is that we are allowed to participate but don't have to. It is not a sin to celebrate Passover if we don't think of it as a work that saves us.

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Unread 06-02-2016, 11:20 AM   #32
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I have to ask (just because I'm curious) why would we want to celebrate Passover?
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Unread 06-02-2016, 11:53 AM   #33
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That is a great question. My old church would do a Seder every few years and they made it a very worshipful experience. We went through the traditional Seder and saw how every aspect of it pointed to Christ and was meant to light the way to Christ.

I am not sure why that church started the tradition, but it was a very cool, very educational experience that opened my eyes to the awesome wisdom and sovereignty of God. I don't think I would have ever wanted to participate in one before attending that church; but having gone through one, I can't highly recommend it enough (assuming you go to a Christian Seder that functions like the one I went to, not treating the experience as a ritual to get one step closer to God, but as a time of worship).

I want to throw this out there as well:

One Good Friday, when I was a music minister in a small town in KY, we did a Hymn Sing event where I picked out 10 hymns (some were old, some were newer) that depicted Good Friday/Easter. We also read in full John 13 (washing of the disciples feet/beginning of Last Supper) to John 19 (crucifixion and burial). I ended on the burial and we finished the story 3 days later.

This was the first time this particular church had done anything like that (and i doubt they have since), but it was a very cool, very worshipful experience (and I have personally not been a part of anything like since, I had gotten the idea from a friend in Seminary).

I think of both experiences (the Hymn Sing and the Seder) as very similar events. They both broke the normal liturgy of the church, and they both had roots in tradition (hymn sings have been a thing for like ever); but done right, through the lens of grace and Gospel, are very strong elements that can open the door for deeper, more sincere worship (ultimately, all worship is between the worshipper and God, but breaking the everyday can sometimes open the eyes to experience new beauty should the worshipper allow it to).

To answer your question one more time: many of us never want to experience something new, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that (as in, it is not sinful to be content with having genuine worship through the same liturgy weekly), but I hope I have given you genuine curiosity to look into something you may have never considered, or something you had previously written, simply because you have thought of it in the way I have laid out.
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Unread 06-02-2016, 12:27 PM   #34
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I have taken part in two "Messianic Seders" so I am very familiar. Now, several years after the fact, I just don't think it's something I would want to do again. The Passover Seder was given to a people who were lost and waiting for something. As a Christian I don't fit that. I think it's fine to understand the symbols and the meaning behind the seder and no, I don't think it's wrong to do it. I just don't know why one would want to.

I much prefer meeting around the table on Sunday and proclaiming His death, burial, and resurrection with other believers.
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Unread 06-02-2016, 12:47 PM   #35
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I have taken part in two "Messianic Seders" so I am very familiar. Now, several years after the fact, I just don't think it's something I would want to do again. The Passover Seder was given to a people who were lost and waiting for something. As a Christian I don't fit that. I think it's fine to understand the symbols and the meaning behind the seder and no, I don't think it's wrong to do it. I just don't know why one would want to.

I much prefer meeting around the table on Sunday and proclaiming His death, burial, and resurrection with other believers.
I would guess you could get 2 people who go to Promise Keepers, Passion, T4G, or any number of large scale events and get the same responses: 1) Loved it, can't wait for next year, and 2) Not for me (and to push it further, you could people in each of those 2 camps responding in sin as well as not in sin due to enjoying it for the wrong reasons or rejecting it for the wrong reasons as well as enjoying it worshipfully or rejecting it because it did not facilitate worship/felt like an old ritual that was cold and dead).

I think the most important thing to understand for the sake of this thread though is still that we CAN do it but don't HAVE to do it.
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Unread 06-02-2016, 05:16 PM   #36
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Thank you for clarifying
As I said in a previous post, most Christians function in the middle, using the 2 as extreme bookends. Al inerrantists can agree that we should 1) DO what the Bible commands TO do and 2) NOT DO what the Bible commands us NOT to do.

Most people today who hug the regulative line hug the Spirit over the Letter of the law in cases like transportation and modern science, BUT there are some cultures (Amish for example) that were founded on the extreme view of the regulative principle.
The so-called () regulative principle of worship concerns worship services, not one's mode of transportation. Its most prominent exponents come from the Reformed tradition. he statements of the principle are in the standard Reformed documents -- Westminster, Heidelberg, and Belgic -- and each is clear on this. It's about the formal, corporate worship service. There is variety in its implementation, though Calvin's own liturgy would look rather like the Book of Common Prayer to the eyes of most contemporary evangelicals.

A similar notion is used in some Anabaptist traditions -- including the Amish, but extending to the Churches of Christ and others -- in what some regard as a radical austerity or "other"-ness, at least to worship but in many cases also to the whole mission of the kingdom. This is not the regulative principle of worship; it is a conviction held by some groups who also happen to employ something like the regulative principle of worship. But the idea there is a distinctiveness from the world, not a regulation of worship by positive biblical mandate. This is more like a monastic ascetic discipline, a vow of giving up to focus instead on one's particular call to serve, than it is Reformed convictions regulating the elements of worship by following Holy Scripture's mandate.

Quote:
I will be completely honest in saying I know nothing about the Maundy Thursday feast (as well as most Roman Catholic teaching; in fact, until recently I thought the "immaculate conception" described Christ's own virgin conception, and I have never run into another non-Catholic who didn't think the same way).

My GUESS based on what I do know about Catholicism is that most "rituals" in most "religions" are MUST DO's, and I am arguing for a CAN DO event that simply allows us to remember and respect a past tradition from a "completed/fulfilled" religion that always pointed to the soon-to-be established covenant of grace over works.

Think of it also as a educational experience where Christians can learn about something they never fully knew (since most Christians don't celebrate Passover) that could lead to a deeper understand of God and further glorifying His great wisdom and sovereignty.

***ALL IN ALL***

What I am arguing is that we are allowed to participate but don't have to. It is not a sin to celebrate Passover if we don't think of it as a work that saves us.
Traditionally Christians have seen Passover in terms of the person Jesus Christ (1 Cor 5:7), the special feast of Maundy Thursday, and the regular feast of the sacrament, by whatever name (Lord's Supper, Eucharist, etc.).

Maundy Thursday is a feast/festival observed by most Christians, not just Catholics, on the Thursday prior to Easter. This is the night of the Last Supper, so naturally there are elements of a Passover meal, likely a celebration of Communion and often a full meal. Often there are elements of foot-washing, following what Jesus did on the same night. A variety of other practices surround the night and in some cases the prior day. I see no reason that elements of the Seder could not inform the same event.

In other words, my suspicion is that what you're commending as a possibly good practice for some Christian churches may be understood as a variant of a traditional Maundy Thursday. In that case, little can be found wrong with it unless it is overly ideological in its execution, or alternatively if its opponent is overly ideological about Christian feasting and festivals in general.
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Last edited by Chrysostom; 06-02-2016 at 05:31 PM.
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