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Unread 04-10-2016, 02:54 AM   #16
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You get more food on passover than you do on communion.

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Unread 04-25-2016, 05:55 AM   #17
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I'm still not really sure why this thread was started. But I'd like to follow up on a few points raised:

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Originally Posted by pkguitarist
Well, the way I see it, Jesus replaced the Passover with the communion. It's what he intended on the church to observe rather than the Passover.
Yes. But go further - what is the Holy Eucharist ('the communion'). Why do we celebrate it? How often should we celebrate it? How does it relate to the rest of how we work out our salvation?

The Church, historically, has understood the Eucharist as the meal that defines us as Christians, and until the innovations of the Reformers took root (mostly as a response to the innovations of the Roman Catholics, who had gone seriously astray), it was celebrated every time Christians gathered to worship on Sunday. It is partaking in the slain Lamb - St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople writing in the 4th century, says that the Eucharist, the blood of Christ, is the 'blood on the doorpost of our lips', that when the angel of death sees it, passes over.
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Unread 04-25-2016, 08:19 AM   #18
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I miss having communion each week, as we did at our PCA church in Philly.
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Unread 04-25-2016, 10:10 AM   #19
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We celebrate the Lord's Supper (Communion) every Sunday. It's the center of our corporate worship service.
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Unread 05-26-2016, 12:53 PM   #20
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The big answer is this: we don't *have* to observe it
BUT, we *can* still celebrate it!

I once went to a Passover Seder that looked at every element as an act of Christian worship. For instance (and this is a serious part of the custom that dates back to the beginning of the feast), you take 3 loaves of unleavened bread, break the middle piece, "hide" it, the let the children look for it later in the feast. This was to represent the breaking of the body of the second person of the Trinity, and representing his burial and resurrection!

There are also 4 times you drink ceremonially from the wine, the third time was right before taking of some of the bread. That cup represents Redemption:

Quote:
The next part of the feast is the Ha-Geulah or The Third Cup: The Cup of Redemption. This is called the cup of blessing or Ha-Geulah. It is a celebration of God’s promise that He will redeem us. The Jews used this cup to symbolize the blood of the Passover Lamb. How significant that this is where Jesus said, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.” We must never forget that our salvation was purchased by our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross. God redeemed His elect with His outstretched arm. Hebrews 9:22 tells us that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned–every one–to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:5-6 ESV)

In Jesus death, God did not just cover sin, He took it away! Anyone who places their trust in Jesus and His finished work of redemption accomplished on the cross, is passed from death due to sin, into life which is eternal. Let us remember Jesus shed blood and the redemption He purchased for us.
This was the cup Jesus used to establish the New Covenant.

I highly recommend doing more research into the classic Seder traditions through the lens of Christ.
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Unread 05-26-2016, 09:50 PM   #21
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How does this show that we can still celebrate it?
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Unread 05-27-2016, 08:44 AM   #22
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There are 2 philosophies concerning following what Scripture teaches: The Regulative Principle and the Normative Principle

The Regulative Principle states that you can only do what the Bible condones, no more, no less. If the Bible is silent on the issue, you can't do it. This is the philosophy behind the Amish way of life as well as why Church of Christ churches don't have musical instrumentation (all passages about musical instrumentation are linked to Old Testament rituals alongside dietary and sacrificial rituals; there is no mention of instrumentation in the New Testament describing Christian worship practices).

The Normative Principle states that you can only *not* do what the Bible condemns. If the Bible is silent on an issue, it is fair game as long as it lines up with other Biblical teachings.

These are "bookend" philosophies, and most Christians function somewhere in the middle. Celebrating Jewish customs through the lens of Christ, not as a way of trying to keep them as a means to earning salvation, but rather enjoying and respecting the original intent (i.e. seeing how God was preparing the Jewish people for Christ's coming through the symbolism in the Seder) is an excellent way to worship God.

Yes, Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Jewish customs, but they have not become sinful. According to the regulative principle, we cannot do them anymore as we are no longer commanded to walk by them, *but* according to the Normative principle they are still fair game since the Bible doesn't directly command us *not* to participate anymore.

I hope this explains why some people refuse to do them while others embrace them. The main points are that 1) we no longer *have* to do them and 2) the Bible is silent on the issue. I have personally settled on the side that they can be good and useful, but I do not regularly participate in them.
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Unread 05-27-2016, 08:53 AM   #23
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So, could we get circumcised religiously, as a way to remember how Christ was cut off for our sake?
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Unread 05-27-2016, 08:59 AM   #24
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No, you are confusing the ideas of "requirements" and "allowances".

I cannot get circumcised religiously, as that, by definition, is a works based attitude.

We are not, however, forbidden from getting circumcised for other reasons.

I am allowed to participate in Jewish customs as an act of Christian worship, but I cannot do so in an effort to appease God or as a requirement/merit of God's grace.

To be clear, though, only one word ("religiously") made your statement false. If you choose to circumcise your son, feel free to praise God for Christ being cut off for our sake. The sin enters when you do so "religiously".
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Unread 05-27-2016, 02:57 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan J Emerson
There are 2 philosophies concerning following what Scripture teaches: The Regulative Principle and the Normative Principle The Regulative Principle states that you can only do what the Bible condones, no more, no less. If the Bible is silent on the issue, you can't do it. This is the philosophy behind the Amish way of life as well as why Church of Christ churches don't have musical instrumentation (all passages about musical instrumentation are linked to Old Testament rituals alongside dietary and sacrificial rituals; there is no mention of instrumentation in the New Testament describing Christian worship practices). The Normative Principle states that you can only *not* do what the Bible condemns. If the Bible is silent on an issue, it is fair game as long as it lines up with other Biblical teachings. These are "bookend" philosophies, and most Christians function somewhere in the middle. Celebrating Jewish customs through the lens of Christ, not as a way of trying to keep them as a means to earning salvation, but rather enjoying and respecting the original intent (i.e. seeing how God was preparing the Jewish people for Christ's coming through the symbolism in the Seder) is an excellent way to worship God. Yes, Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Jewish customs, but they have not become sinful. According to the regulative principle, we cannot do them anymore as we are no longer commanded to walk by them, *but* according to the Normative principle they are still fair game since the Bible doesn't directly command us *not* to participate anymore. I hope this explains why some people refuse to do them while others embrace them. The main points are that 1) we no longer *have* to do them and 2) the Bible is silent on the issue. I have personally settled on the side that they can be good and useful, but I do not regularly participate in them.
I like this.
Enjoying and respecting the original content ..... So many celebrations woohoo
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Unread 05-28-2016, 01:15 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan J Emerson View Post
No, you are confusing the ideas of "requirements" and "allowances".

I cannot get circumcised religiously, as that, by definition, is a works based attitude.

We are not, however, forbidden from getting circumcised for other reasons.

I am allowed to participate in Jewish customs as an act of Christian worship, but I cannot do so in an effort to appease God or as a requirement/merit of God's grace.

To be clear, though, only one word ("religiously") made your statement false. If you choose to circumcise your son, feel free to praise God for Christ being cut off for our sake. The sin enters when you do so "religiously".
I meant "religiously" only by what I said in my post: as an act of worship, which is to be religious.

I think you alluded to this when you said works , but how could we perform acts like circumcision in a way that is connected to Christian worship without it being something like Judaizing? Or, more importantly, as normal human beings, how are expected to circumcision or partake Passover without acting like we are turning back the redemptive clock, if you will? I'm not sure we can separate it out or perhaps this is more analogous to eating meat sacrificed to idols

Help me parse this out
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Unread 05-29-2016, 12:36 PM   #27
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Judaizers were preaching "Jesus AND" as a means of salvation. Partaking in rituals as an act of worship teaches "Jesus ONLY" while respecting tradition.

There is an old hymn that says it best:

To see the law by Christ fulfilled, to hear His pardoning voice
Changes a slave into a child, and duty into choice.

Like this hymn, I am saying that participating in Passover is a "choice". Judaizers teach it as duty.

Think of it this way, where does the Bible teach us to sing 3 songs, preach a sermon, sing another song as an alter call and then have a solo while the offering plate is passed around (or some form of that)? That is a "tradition" that we use to format corporate worship. It fits in our culture and is commonly accepted through the Western church so that if you visit most churches in America, you will still feel comfortable and have a general idea of what to expect.

Think of participating in a Christian Seder like that: a liturgy that respects an old tradition that is a format for corporate worship. It is just different from what *you* are used to.
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Unread 05-29-2016, 07:09 PM   #28
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Bryan, if I'm hearing correctly, what you're proposing is not a true Passover Seder but rather a ceremonial Christian feast that uses the Passover Seder as a liturgical or ritualistic resource.

Does that sound correct?

If so, no need to go to the argument from the so-called normative principle, and likewise there will be no obvious implications of renewed covenantal circumcision etc. This could fall closer into the patterns of historic worship practices.

In that case: When would we do it? For what reason? And what relation it will bear to the existing Maundy Thursday feast?

My suspicion is that this is a way for those within anti-ritualistic Christian communities to experience some piece of ceremony, mystery, and tradition, while compartmentalizing the event in order to avoid compromising their liturgical convictions.

That is, it's basically a cordoned off form of Maundy Thursday and the regular Eucharist.

Does that sound right?
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Unread 05-30-2016, 10:43 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysostom View Post
Bryan, if I'm hearing correctly, what you're proposing is not a true Passover Seder but rather a ceremonial Christian feast that uses the Passover Seder as a liturgical or ritualistic resource.

Does that sound correct?
Tomato tomato (You know what I mean). You have to remember that a "true Jewish Seder" no longer exists. Before Christ, Jews were required to participate in all festivities, Seder included. The Last Supper was the final Seder as well as the first Lord's Supper/Communion. All of Judaism was meant to end there as Christ was taking on the sin of the world. He was the Passover Lamb and would forever atone for all sin of His people. No Seder performed after would count for anything, as the Seder was satisfied.

That said, you can call a "current" Seder by any name you want to call it, as it is all purely ceremonial now anyway. As a Christian, however, I have a better and more complete understanding of the Seder than any Jew ever could (before or after Christ); and therefore, when I participate in a Seder through the lens of Christ, I can worship God in a way that Jews before Christ longed to worship God, and Jews after Christ (specifically those who will never convert to Christianity) never will (because their God doesn't exist*).

[* I understand the boldness of this statement, but unless you believe in 2 ways to heaven/dispensationalism, you *must* believe all "current" Judaism is heresy/cultish/false teaching/idolatry]

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If so, no need to go to the argument from the so-called normative principle, and likewise there will be no obvious implications of renewed covenantal circumcision etc. This could fall closer into the patterns of historic worship practices.
1) There is no "so-called" Normative Principle. It is a real thing theologians have been using for centuries.

2) Anything that goes against direct Scriptural mandate must use the Normative Principle. The New Testament does not command us to continue Jewish practices (and *does* preach against Judaisers who taught you *must* continue them), so you have to rely on the freedom that the Normative Principle allows in order to participate in a Seder (much like you must rely on the NP to fly in an airplane).

Quote:
In that case: When would we do it? For what reason? And what relation it will bear to the existing Maundy Thursday feast?
There is no *need* to participate in a Christian Seder around Easter/Passover, but why would you want to do it any other time (not a fully rhetorical question)? If you ever thought "I want to do one now", you have that freedom; but most people would only ever want to do it around Easter/Passover for tradition's sake (and there is nothing wrong with tradition for tradition's sake; but it becomes dangerous when you *only* do tradition for tradition's sake and ignore Scripture when making these kinds of decisions).

There is also the argument for the "communion of the saints" (part of the Apostles' Creed) which is the belief that when we participate in tradition, we participate in it will all past saints who participated in it. Think about the song A Mighty Fortress. When we sing it, we can remember the 500 years worth of Christians who sang it, who gave their lives singing it, who sang it in German, French, Italian, Swahili, and English; and any other tradition behind it. It gives it a quality that, while not supernatural, is spiritual and special. The Seder is the same, but stretching back to its origin where faithful Jews participated in worship to the same God we worship today.

Quote:
My suspicion is that this is a way for those within anti-ritualistic Christian communities to experience some piece of ceremony, mystery, and tradition, while compartmentalizing the event in order to avoid compromising their liturgical convictions.

That is, it's basically a cordoned off form of Maundy Thursday and the regular Eucharist.

Does that sound right?
There is nothing wrong with wanting to experience some piece of ceremony, mystery, and tradition; and we don't have to do it while compartmentalizing the event in order to avoid compromising our liturgical convictions. *If* we feel convicted, we shouldn't do it (as there are no requirements to do it). But if we have no problem buying the meat at the market that may or may not have been sacrificed to idols, we have that freedom so long as we do not cause a brother to stumble in the process.
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Unread 06-02-2016, 06:33 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan J Emerson View Post
1) There is no "so-called" Normative Principle. It is a real thing theologians have been using for centuries.
"So-called" denotes a common-use term, in this case that appears otherwise to be a descriptor.

And yes, I know what it means. Typically the terminology is used to reify a contrast between Anglican and Puritan liturgical practice, though it has less currency than the term "regulative principle."

Quote:
2) Anything that goes against direct Scriptural mandate must use the Normative Principle. The New Testament does not command us to continue Jewish practices (and *does* preach against Judaisers who taught you *must* continue them), so you have to rely on the freedom that the Normative Principle allows in order to participate in a Seder (much like you must rely on the NP to fly in an airplane).
Presumably there's a typo in here. "Anything that goes against direct Scriptural mandate" would be rejected by Cranmer as readily as by Greenville seminary today. Neither tradition of liturgical practice would be opposed to flying in an airplane. And the 1500 years of Christians who preceded both might have their own convictions.

Quote:
There is no *need* to participate in a Christian Seder around Easter/Passover, but why would you want to do it any other time (not a fully rhetorical question)? If you ever thought "I want to do one now", you have that freedom; but most people would only ever want to do it around Easter/Passover for tradition's sake (and there is nothing wrong with tradition for tradition's sake; but it becomes dangerous when you *only* do tradition for tradition's sake and ignore Scripture when making these kinds of decisions).
Right. So what relation might it bear to Maundy Thursday, in one proposal?

Quote:
There is also the argument for the "communion of the saints" (part of the Apostles' Creed) which is the belief that when we participate in tradition, we participate in it will all past saints who participated in it. Think about the song A Mighty Fortress. When we sing it, we can remember the 500 years worth of Christians who sang it, who gave their lives singing it, who sang it in German, French, Italian, Swahili, and English; and any other tradition behind it. It gives it a quality that, while not supernatural, is spiritual and special. The Seder is the same, but stretching back to its origin where faithful Jews participated in worship to the same God we worship today.
The desire to feel psycho-social closeness to Abraham's elder children is insufficient reason for ministers circumcise our children or present burnt offerings of our lambs; there must be something deeper, and probably it must fit within the rhythms of the liturgical year.

You have to have the feast make some sense ritualistically while distinguishing it from Maundy Thursday. I'm not saying that can't be done. I am saying that you haven't yet given any attribute of a Seder-inspired Christian feast that does.

When, why, and how doesn't Maundy Thursday already do the same thing? I know how to answer the comparable questions for a Purim-inspired Christian festival. I don't for a Seder-inspired feast.
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