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Unread 03-03-2016, 12:12 PM   #16
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This does read less as a defense of "human life is sacred and deserving of protection, even/especially in its earliest stages" and more of an argument that "the risk of unwanted pregnancy and its side effects is a suitable punishment for women engaging in risky sexual behavior".
No, but it is a chosen, potential consequence of consensual sexual activity. Natural consequences of ones choices are not punishments.

There is a subtle fallacy here in the language used. Lung cancer is a potential consequence of a lifetime of smoking. No punishment is being made. Pregnancy is the same way. It isn't a punishment at all. If it is a punishment, who is the one meeting it out?

The fundamental problem is a despising of human life revealed by such language. It is the sort of talk which treats children as problems, not people. It is dehumanization of the human.

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Unread 03-03-2016, 02:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq View Post
No, but it is a chosen, potential consequence of consensual sexual activity. Natural consequences of ones choices are not punishments.

There is a subtle fallacy here in the language used. Lung cancer is a potential consequence of a lifetime of smoking. No punishment is being made. Pregnancy is the same way. It isn't a punishment at all. If it is a punishment, who is the one meeting it out?

The fundamental problem is a despising of human life revealed by such language. It is the sort of talk which treats children as problems, not people. It is dehumanization of the human.
I don't want to speak for mtlmouth, but I don't think she personally was claiming that pregnancy and childbirth are punishments. I think her point was that there's an uncomfortable undercurrent of (for lack of a better term) slut-shaming that can easily creep into pro-life arguments. It's one thing to argue that unborn babies are human beings whose lives are worth protecting at all costs. But that argument is often accompanied by a self-righteous afterthought along the lines of "And besides, that's what happens when you sleep around." I'm not saying everybody talks that way, but I do hear it a lot. And the latter thought doesn't really have anything to do with the morality of abortion or concern for the unborn child; it's more of a "this is what you get for being a dirty sinner" attitude.

(mltmouth, I hope I'm not being presumptuous; if I misinterpreted what you wrote, please let me know.)

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Unread 03-03-2016, 02:48 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by rock_show_host View Post
I don't want to speak for mtlmouth, but I don't think she personally was claiming that pregnancy and childbirth are punishments. I think her point was that there's an uncomfortable undercurrent of (for lack of a better term) slut-shaming that can easily creep into pro-life arguments. It's one thing to argue that unborn babies are human beings whose lives are worth protecting at all costs. But that argument is often accompanied an afterthought along the lines of "And besides, that's what happens when you sleep around." Not saying everybody talks that way, but I do hear it a lot. And the latter thought doesn't really have anything to do with the morality of abortion or concern for the unborn child; it's more of a "this is what you get for being a dirty sinner" attitude.

(mltmouth, I hope I'm not being presumptuous; if I misinterpreted what you wrote, please let me know.)
The only way you get to it being slut shaming is if you ignore everything stated and insert it in yourself!

The fact is, pregnancy is a natural consequence of sexual activity. Period. It is basic biology. That isn't anything shaming, it is basic, scientific fact. If you call it shaming, you have to impart the pregnancy=shame thing yourself.
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Unread 03-03-2016, 02:56 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by rock_show_host View Post
I don't want to speak for mtlmouth, but I don't think she personally was claiming that pregnancy and childbirth are punishments. I think her point was that there's an uncomfortable undercurrent of (for lack of a better term) slut-shaming that can easily creep into pro-life arguments. It's one thing to argue that unborn babies are human beings whose lives are worth protecting at all costs. But that argument is often accompanied by a self-righteous afterthought along the lines of "And besides, that's what happens when you sleep around." I'm not saying everybody talks that way, but I do hear it a lot. And the latter thought doesn't really have anything to do with the morality of abortion or concern for the unborn child; it's more of a "this is what you get for being a dirty sinner" attitude.

(mltmouth, I hope I'm not being presumptuous; if I misinterpreted what you wrote, please let me know.)
You interpreted my post accurately. Thanks for expanding on it.
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Unread 03-03-2016, 03:09 PM   #20
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Like I said in the other thread. I really don't like abortion. I hate the idea of condemning an unborn child to death.

But I can't completely put myself in the pro life camp, because I also can't bear (the specific cases of) condemning a woman to carry and give birth to the product of rape, or forcing a woman to continue in pregnancy if it is genuinely life threatening.

Sadly, it is very difficult to enable abortions for those specific cases without also enabling the "lifestyle choice" type of abortion.


There's actually another analogy with military here. Sometimes, when I've told people that I think the US should drop a lot of their military funding and be less quick to send forces to other countries, they say something along the lines of "someone has to do it, and if the US doesn't, then someone who won't do as good a job will." Abortions are a bit like that - some people will seek out an abortion no matter what, and if there isn't a safe, legal way to do so, then it will get done in a way that is more likely to cause lasting harm.

I really don't like either of those situations, but I can see the logic and reasoning there. This is a broken world.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 11:08 AM   #21
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Isn't the big difference in having an unwanted pregnancy and an unwanted roommate a matter of degrees? Physical and psychological discomfort, financial costs, inconvenience, all of these could come from domestic abuse. Why are we more willing to kill a fetus than an abusive spouse? The answer has to be that a fetus is subhuman in their minds. In that way, I see absolutely no difference in the reasoning behind nazi's master race. They both require labeling a group as subhuman. This is what murderers do. They label their victim as subhuman or at least lesser than themselves. Andthey always have a motive, usually involving money or their own comfort. I think that the OP is right to say that apart from Christ, you won't have the value for human life necessary to sacrifice for a child. But that also means that any morality would be selfish in nature. In other words, the only thing preventing a person from committing any crime is whether or not the reward is worth the risk.
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