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Unread 03-02-2016, 09:35 AM   #31
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Christianity is associated with the political right because any time left-leaning Christians try to engage in discussion, the right shouts them down as complicit in baby-murdering without addressing the rest of the platform. That tends to chill discourse.

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Unread 03-02-2016, 10:15 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe View Post
Well, I'm glad I don't have to make such a decision
Because all European politicians are perfect?
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Unread 03-02-2016, 10:15 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by mtlmouth View Post
Christianity is associated with the political right because any time left-leaning Christians try to engage in discussion, the right shouts them down as complicit in baby-murdering without addressing the rest of the platform. That tends to chill discourse.
This has been my experience, as a lefty Christian (not to tip my hat or anything, but anyone who knows the first thing about me knows this already - I don't make a big secret of my views).
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.

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Unread 03-02-2016, 10:17 AM   #34
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Because all European politicians are perfect?
Because with so many candidates, I always find someone that I agree with on all the important areas.
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Unread 03-02-2016, 10:54 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by ICXC_NIKA View Post
This has been my experience, as a lefty Christian (not to tip my hat or anything, but anyone who knows the first thing about me knows this already - I don't make a big secret of my views).
Mine too. And honestly, abortion is enough of an important and morally-charged issue that one some level, I totally understand why a lot of people see it as a deal-breaker or as their number one priority. What's more frustrating is how often people seem to only bring it up as a last-minute trump card in arguments that don't actually have anything to do with abortion. I can't count the number of times I've seen that happen.
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Unread 03-02-2016, 11:27 AM   #36
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A short take...

We associate right/conservatism with the Republican party and left/liberalism with the Democrat party. There have definitely been times in history where the Republican party was a liberal party and vice versa.

So the Republicans today say, "We're the party of Lincoln" despite the fact that Lincoln's actions were very "liberal" for their time.
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Unread 03-02-2016, 12:04 PM   #37
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A short take...

We associate right/conservatism with the Republican party and left/liberalism with the Democrat party. There have definitely been times in history where the Republican party was a liberal party and vice versa.

So the Republicans today say, "We're the party of Lincoln" despite the fact that Lincoln's actions were very "liberal" for their time.
agreed, but the shift has been relatively recent. I also wouldn't say there is a huge divide politically between Trump and Hillary. (Maybe sanity wise, but policy wise there isn't as big a gulf as people pretend, hardly any at all if you look at his statements prior to recent posturings.) I would not say there is currently a major conservative party.

Since abortion also targets primarily minorities, poor and the disabled, some see it as a continuation of some of the old KKK ideology redressed up and sent back out. (Seriously, I can point you to numerous books written on the topic.) There are some pretty compelling arguments there. Whether modern abortion supporters have any leanings that way or no is irrelevant to the history.

And my point is not why you should agree with me, but the history in the US has played out the way it has, which has resulted in the alliances it has, whether justified or not. And abortion is always going to be a huge deal, because if your worldview supports killing more children than Hitler or Pol Pot, it is monstrous and murderous. If you support that, its kind of a deal breaker no less small than being a white supremacist. Since the Left has fundamentally championed that idea in the US, its hard to accept any alliance with them. IMO this should make alliances with warhawks offensive, though less so as nations do generally have the accepted right to defend themselves when attacked. (Again, I don't think this can really be applied with any consistency since WWII.)


I'd also argue dispensationalism paints government very differently than many mainline denominations dependant la If one is in a post-millenial view, the government can be the means of social improvement bringing about a better and better world. A pre-millenial view takes a view that the world and governments will get worse and worse until Christ himself has to intervene directly. This paints government in a negative light. Thus, it makes no sense under that worldview to expand the powers of government.


FTR I am also very anti-war in the US sense and very unpatriotic. My views of the US Government are highly cynical and jaded. I am Libertarian btw.
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Unread 03-10-2016, 12:41 AM   #38
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This has been an interesting discussion.

I mean, I understand y'all's stated reasons for supporting the Republicans, but your stated reasons (still) make absolutely zero sense to me.

You might say your (falsely so-called) pro-life politics force you to such a stand. Okay, but whatever you happen to think about that, Jesus says not a word about the Religious Right's anti-abortion pet project and actually does say straight up that people who mistreat the poor are going to Hell (cf. Matt 25) - at least at a simplistic reading of the passage (I think there's more to it than that, but the main thrust of Christ's words remains the same). Whereas, the earliest Christian reference to abortion is contained in a document called the Didache, is *not* in the New Testament, and is dated after the other New Testament writings.

I know what political issue I'm prioritizing, based on that fact alone. That's not to say I don't consider abortion a travesty. I just think, based on what I just said, that Jesus would rather have us serve our neighbor and meet her needs rather than try to police whether she's having an abortion or not.

Take that for what you will. I'll continue scratching my head.
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.


Last edited by IsaactheSyrian; 03-10-2016 at 01:00 AM.
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Unread 03-10-2016, 03:03 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by ICXC_NIKA View Post
This has been an interesting discussion.

I mean, I understand y'all's stated reasons for supporting the Republicans, but your stated reasons (still) make absolutely zero sense to me.
I never said I supported the Republicans
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You might say your (falsely so-called) pro-life politics force you to such a stand.
Got to stop you here. I am pro life,so inflammatory rhetoric here is frankly is no more honestly valid than "when did you stop beating your wife?" The left is flagrantly pro death. Pro murder of innocent childrens, pro culling society of the poor, the disabled, pro suicide for the mentally ill.
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Okay, but whatever you happen to think about that, Jesus says not a word about the Religious Right's anti-abortion pet project
One has to not read Jesus at all to believe this.I think one can easily see his heart when he speaks of it better to have a millstone around your neck than cause a child to stumble... what then of those who make killing them their stock and trade?

This to me is a 21st century equivalent of a pro-slavery argument. In fact, it isn't far removed from 18th century pro-slavery arguments,
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and actually does say straight up that people who mistreat the poor are going to Hell (cf. Matt 25) - at least at a simplistic reading of the passage (I think there's more to it than that, but the main thrust of Christ's words remains the same).
And the question remains, does the American left's agenda harm the poor? Many of us would say yes. In the areas where the left has had a long foothold over here, the poor are in the worst shape. Chicago comes to mind.
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Whereas, the earliest Christian reference to abortion is contained in a document called the Didache, is *not* in the New Testament, and is dated after the other New Testament writings.
This level of argument is academically dubious as there are numerous crimes that were literally unheard of in the first century. While abortion is an ancient concept it was a taboo at the time of Hippocrates in the very much more socially liberal Greece (as opposed to Rome and Palestine). It very well could be a case of something that was literally not practiced in Palestine at the time of Christ.
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I know what political issue I'm prioritizing, based on that fact alone. That's not to say I don't consider abortion a travesty. I just think, based on what I just said, that Jesus would rather have us serve our neighbor and meet her needs rather than try to police whether she's having an abortion or not.

Take that for what you will. I'll continue scratching my head.
So whether someone is killed matters less to you than whether someone might have a slightly lower standard of living? Because, having been involved in homeless, street ministry to street kids, and as a mental health professional, nobody is proposing anything that would help those situations. It isn't about the truly at risk poor. It never is. Homelessness and mental illness, (which seem to stem largely from deinstitutionalisation) are dealt with on the ground. I have been homeless. I have worked with the homeless in various stages for years.

My big problem with the left is the incitements to violence, the incitements to abject racism, and the idea of a zero-sum game. And where it has been tried in the US, it has failed. I have lived in liberal places in the US.

I also see the idea that the left cares and the right doesn't to be ridiculously offensive, and untrue.
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Unread 03-10-2016, 08:09 AM   #40
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My big problem with the left is the incitements to violence, the incitements to abject racism, and the idea of a zero-sum game. And where it has been tried in the US, it has failed. I have lived in liberal places in the US.
Can you be more specific?
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Unread 03-10-2016, 08:21 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by ICXC_NIKA View Post
This has been an interesting discussion.

I mean, I understand y'all's stated reasons for supporting the Republicans, but your stated reasons (still) make absolutely zero sense to me.

You might say your (falsely so-called) pro-life politics force you to such a stand. Okay, but whatever you happen to think about that, Jesus says not a word about the Religious Right's anti-abortion pet project and actually does say straight up that people who mistreat the poor are going to Hell (cf. Matt 25) - at least at a simplistic reading of the passage (I think there's more to it than that, but the main thrust of Christ's words remains the same). Whereas, the earliest Christian reference to abortion is contained in a document called the Didache, is *not* in the New Testament, and is dated after the other New Testament writings.

I know what political issue I'm prioritizing, based on that fact alone. That's not to say I don't consider abortion a travesty. I just think, based on what I just said, that Jesus would rather have us serve our neighbor and meet her needs rather than try to police whether she's having an abortion or not.

Take that for what you will. I'll continue scratching my head.
What you say makes sense, but is highly debatable. By that I mean, of course everyone thinks that we have an obligation to care for the poor (okay, lemme backpedal: most agree that the poor should be taken care of, but don't connect the dots that they would have responsibility), the question is entirely the means or method by which they get care.

One side says the most effective way to give justice to the poor is to have the government aid them. Another side says the most effective way to give justice to the poor is to have personal aid without a bureau or government agency. Another side says give opportunities (for training, catastrophic care, etc.) and they can help themselves best.

Another way of looking at it is, Should those more fortunate care for the poor out of their wealth? I think the answer is unequivocally Yes. ... But again the question is HIGHLY debatable exactly by what means, on what grounds, and how much aid.

One side says that the rich should be compelled through government pressure (taxes, whatever). Another side says the rich should give it freely, "uncoerced". Another side says that the rich should give to the church, and the church will care for the poor.

So, it comes back to Does the government have an interest in taxing the rich and providing aid to the poor? (On what grounds? I think there is a good case to be made) Are the rich committing such egregious civil injustice by not-caring for the poor, such that the government has an interest in considering such omissions as punishable? (On what grounds? I again think a case can be made, but it must be made as it isn't obvious)

I take as given (though many Americans do not), that the government is not stealing when it taxes, and thus is not a Robin Hood character.

[edit]
I feel like, after re-reading my post, that I didn't speak directly to your concern. What I am trying to say is that it requires long lines to connect the dots between "going to hell on account of (not) doing [x]" means "the government should regulate [x]".
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Unread 03-10-2016, 09:35 AM   #42
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(This is a response to the original post.)

What Americans recently came to think of as "blue state" and "red state" are the children of a divide between Protestants, going back 100-400 yrs depending on how you count. That is why American Baptists are progressive but Southern Baptists are conservative, PCUSA is progressive but PCA/OPC is conservative, United Church of Christ is progressive but the International Church of Christ is conservative, even why Unitarian Universalists are progressive but Mormons are conservative.

Notice that Catholic and Orthodox Christians are not clearly progressive or conservative. That is because what we think of as progressive and conservative (in even a secular socio-political sense) are the products of a fork in Protestant history. For that matter, note that evangelicals were often Democrats until the Moral Majority -- social issues (workers rights etc.) were overriden by family issues (dislocation of sex from children and marriage). Consider further that while the frequency of church attendance is correlated with voting Republican for whites, for blacks frequency of church attendance is correlated with voting Democrat. It is not that Christians are Republican, it's that a particular type of Christians are conservative.

Demographically speaking, many among the progressive faction spent 200 years basically telling people to leave church, pursue private spirituality, personal freedoms, and the nation-state -- and people actually listened. So their descendants are contemporary atheists, spiritual-not-religious, and those for whom the Democratic party has superceded religion. Many Europeans recognize this distinction and would see themselves as "Christian" not in the sense of organized devotion but in the sense of social inheritance -- "the Christian West."

For what it's worth, I've been predicting for a while now that in coming years the country will go more "rightist" and evangelicals will go more "leftist." They may change the current configurations of the coalitions and ideologies, but it will happen.
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Unread 03-10-2016, 10:57 AM   #43
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(This is a response to the original post.)
For what it's worth, I've been predicting for a while now that in coming years the country will go more "rightist" and evangelicals will go more "leftist." They may change the current configurations of the coalitions and ideologies, but it will happen.
Based on anecdotal evidence only, I'd put money on this.
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