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Unread 03-01-2016, 09:22 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by DaGeek
He's being sarcastic, I believe.
I'm pretty sure he isn't.

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Unread 03-01-2016, 02:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbrownlula View Post
2 Thessalonians 3:10
Proof texting is bad theology.
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
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Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
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Unread 03-01-2016, 03:56 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ICXC_NIKA View Post
Proof texting is bad theology.
It is good if it is done in the context of the tradition of reading, which has as its context the rest of Scripture (and how the church has brought the different passages together and applied it in the church). There's nothing wrong with pointing to a specific passage that someone thinks is especially clear on an issue (Jesus did this a lot... and I think Paul does even more).

In this case, the Thessalonians passage is the same one which the early English colonists applied to the New England colonies, whether rightly or wrongly, so as to make the community live by the standard that they interpreted Paul as commissioning the church of Thessaloniki.

It would be better for jwbrownlula if he gave us an exposition of the passage to some degree, even if there was no explanation as to why this command that applied to the Thessalonians also (necessarily) applies to the church, or even that it applies to common-grace structures like the civil government (which is far less obvious).
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Unread 03-01-2016, 05:01 PM   #19
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Unread 03-01-2016, 07:19 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by jwbrownlula View Post
There is nothing more evil than funding the sacrifice of children.
I'm not saying it's not a horrible thing, but I wouldn't rate it is the worst form of evil there is.

I don't like abortion, because I believe in the sanctity of life. I also don't like war, because I believe in the sanctity of life. As an outsider to the US, I'm much more saddened by the amount of funding the US puts into its military than the funding they put into abortions.

However, criticising abortion in the US is relatively safe. Criticising military expenditure gets people very riled up, in my experience.
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Unread 03-01-2016, 08:53 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by to_be_released View Post
I'm not saying it's not a horrible thing, but I wouldn't rate it is the worst form of evil there is.

I don't like abortion, because I believe in the sanctity of life. I also don't like war, because I believe in the sanctity of life. As an outsider to the US, I'm much more saddened by the amount of funding the US puts into its military than the funding they put into abortions.

However, criticising abortion in the US is relatively safe. Criticising military expenditure gets people very riled up, in my experience.


This.

One of the earliest extra-Biblical Christian texts to speak of abortion, the Didache (actually, the Didache was almost included in the Canon of the New Testament!), which dates to the mid-to-late 1st century, condemns both abortion and infanticide (which in those days was done usually by abandonment and exposure to the elements).

You could make a pretty convincing argument that the modern Christian political right are violating the spirit of the Didache's prohibition of abortion by creating circumstances which lead to child poverty, since the Didache envisions care both for the fetus and the infant after it is born.
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.

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Unread 03-01-2016, 10:29 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by thesteve View Post
I'm pretty sure he isn't.
I've never actually met Steve, and yet he knows me so well.

The left's policies are designed to keep the poor, poor. Power and money goes to a select few. The biggest losers are women, children, and minorities.

And then there's the whole murdering babies thing...
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Unread 03-01-2016, 11:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by athanatos View Post
It is good if it is done in the context of the tradition of reading, which has as its context the rest of Scripture (and how the church has brought the different passages together and applied it in the church). There's nothing wrong with pointing to a specific passage that someone thinks is especially clear on an issue (Jesus did this a lot... and I think Paul does even more).

In this case, the Thessalonians passage is the same one which the early English colonists applied to the New England colonies, whether rightly or wrongly, so as to make the community live by the standard that they interpreted Paul as commissioning the church of Thessaloniki.

It would be better for jwbrownlula if he gave us an exposition of the passage to some degree, even if there was no explanation as to why this command that applied to the Thessalonians also (necessarily) applies to the church, or even that it applies to common-grace structures like the civil government (which is far less obvious).
I would agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ICXC_NIKA View Post


This.

One of the earliest extra-Biblical Christian texts to speak of abortion, the Didache (actually, the Didache was almost included in the Canon of the New Testament!), which dates to the mid-to-late 1st century, condemns both abortion and infanticide (which in those days was done usually by abandonment and exposure to the elements).

You could make a pretty convincing argument that the modern Christian political right are violating the spirit of the Didache's prohibition of abortion by creating circumstances which lead to child poverty, since the Didache envisions care both for the fetus and the infant after it is born.
This to me sounds like a horrificaly bad argument, not so different from some 3rd world governments which mow down street kids to prevent their "horrible future life" by gunning them down. (Not a hypothetical mind you.)

And it is only from a subjective, (and I believe fundamentally fatally flawed perspective) belief that leftist policies improve kids lives. Most every pro-life person I know also supports supports for the poor through private charities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.B.Nichols View Post
I've never actually met Steve, and yet he knows me so well.

The left's policies are designed to keep the poor, poor. Power and money goes to a select few. The biggest losers are women, children, and minorities.

And then there's the whole murdering babies thing...
I agree with everything Eric has said btw.

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I would argue that the reason is quite simple.

US history.The blight of supporting slavery and opposing the civil rights movement largely set many in the church against them for good reason. Abortion was another watershed issue, which has been fundamentally historically targeted at the poor, minorities, and the disabled. So in short, they have a horrible human rights history.

Evangelicism is also common here and it relies on dispensationalism generally. Dispensationalism sees government as a whole as being like Rome, not the savior of the Eschaton. Generally speaking, the left conflates government as being in a role of savior. The different worldviews promote view of government as salvation on the left, and as Nero on the right. How you view government will effect whether you view them as the proper one to be bloated and viewed as a cancer or a savior.

I would argue that the US does not have a history which warrants much trust. Genocide, racism, the new genocide of Abortion which is every bit as vile as the murders of the first nations peoples and quite possibly more vile than slavery. (Pending whether you view slavery or slaughter as worse, personally, I view slaughter as generally worse, so I view it as worse, but I can definitely see a counterargument.) Our government ran the Tuskeegee experiments.

Now...

IMO the Republican party has abandoned the values they claimed (rather hollowly) until recently. Now, IMO, and only that, they are every bit as complicit, but many haven't caught on to that. But hundreds of years of evil would be my explanation as to why the Left has not been the traditional lean of American Evangelicism.

Whether you agree with them or not, at least in the USA, I think the arguments for why evangelicism has supported the right are clear from history.

I also don't think it is clear in any meaningful fashion that the US left is any any way better with poverty. I believe they are worse, far worse, by perpetuating cycles of poverty. I grew up in some pretty severe poverty, I have worked with kids in the projects and ghettos. I work in a Psych ward. I am very much someone who comes from the bottom of the economic spectrum, just FWIW.
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Unread 03-01-2016, 11:58 PM   #24
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Mkay. I don't want to turn this into a debate about whose political ideology is better. I'm a Canadian. I'll defend universal healthcare (just for example) till I'm blue in the face, because without it both myself and my parents would have been bankrupt many times over with my health as it is.

However, I...also am not clear on how arguing that reducing supports for children such that children are in poverty, and that this is somewhat analogous to child murder by abandonment is AT ALL equivalent to repressive governments killing kids to prevent them from growing up in suffering.

Further (BSPE), are you claiming that the American Left supported slavery and segregation? That's the way your statement "The blight of supporting slavery and opposing the civil rights movement largely set many in the church against them for good reason" ... reads. Which ...seems suspicious to me.
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.

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Unread 03-02-2016, 12:25 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICXC_NIKA View Post

However, I...also am not clear on how arguing that reducing supports for children such that children are in poverty, and that this is somewhat analogous to child murder by abandonment is AT ALL equivalent to repressive governments killing kids to prevent them from growing up in suffering.
Putting Murder of children on the level of not supporting government programs is pretty poor. The Left actively supports murder of children, so comparing slaughter of kids versus government social programs is kind of suspect to me. Especially since it is a bogus comparison. Because one does not support governmental expansion in a sector does not mean one is not supporting kids after they are born. One can support other paths.It seemed like you were making an argument that poverty was an equivalent evil to Death, which is the justification some regimes have used to slaughter street kids.
Quote:
Further (BSPE), are you claiming that the American Left supported slavery and segregation? That's the way your statement "The blight of supporting slavery and opposing the civil rights movement largely set many in the church against them for good reason" ... reads. Which ...seems suspicious to me.
It can seem suspicious to you, however:

Fact: The democratic party was the party that split off to become the Confederate states of America in the civil war.
Fact: The KKK thrived in the areas of democratic control. It was the party of the KKK back in the day. (Look at the wikipedia article on the KKK if you are curious)

The Democratic party in America was the party of segregation and slavery. That is the origins of some of Evangelicism's problems with the left I would contend.

The history sucks, and while it might be less relevant to the current climate, I would argue that it is a reason for the reason the church historically went the way it did. This is an explanation for the history.

I'd argue that dispensationalism was equally as responsible.
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Unread 03-02-2016, 12:50 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq View Post
Putting Murder of children on the level of not supporting government programs is pretty poor. The Left actively supports murder of children, so comparing slaughter of kids versus government social programs is kind of suspect to me. Especially since it is a bogus comparison. Because one does not support governmental expansion in a sector does not mean one is not supporting kids after they are born. One can support other paths.It seemed like you were making an argument that poverty was an equivalent evil to Death, which is the justification some regimes have used to slaughter street kids.
Thank you for making your reasoning more explicit.

Only in the sense that poverty can lead to death, through any number of means: starvation, inadequate medical care, and the like.

Quote:
It can seem suspicious to you, however:

Fact: The democratic party was the party that split off to become the Confederate states of America in the civil war.
Fact: The KKK thrived in the areas of democratic control. It was the party of the KKK back in the day. (Look at the wikipedia article on the KKK if you are curious)

The Democratic party in America was the party of segregation and slavery. That is the origins of some of Evangelicism's problems with the left I would contend.

The history sucks, and while it might be less relevant to the current climate, I would argue that it is a reason for the reason the church historically went the way it did. This is an explanation for the history.

I'd argue that dispensationalism was equally as responsible.
I'm not as familiar with US history as I'd like to be, so forgive me if I'm way off base - but I was under the impression that the Democratic party of that era (slavery era) was a whole different animal than the one that exists today. An entirely different party, such that the Republicans and the Democrats can really be said to have traded ideological places in many ways. Thus, is it really fair to blame the modern Democratic party for those things?
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.


Last edited by IsaactheSyrian; 03-02-2016 at 01:01 AM.
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Unread 03-02-2016, 01:23 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by ICXC_NIKA View Post

I'm not as familiar with US history as I'd like to be, so forgive me if I'm way off base - but I was under the impression that the Democratic party of that era (slavery era) was a whole different animal than the one that exists today. An entirely different party, such that the Republicans and the Democrats can really be said to have traded ideological places in many ways. Thus, is it really fair to blame the modern Democratic party for those things?
Same party, they have changed over time, but still same parties. Some would say both have flopped around since then, however if you are looking for the origin of the churches ties to the republican party, valid or not, I, think you will find them there.
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Unread 03-02-2016, 02:09 AM   #28
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As someone looking from the outside, I always wonder how Christians can support candidates that want to indiscriminately bomb another nation (or even say that they want to bomb civilians). In any other country, such statements would not be supported by Christians (nor atheists or muslims).

It must also be hard for Americans with the two party system. Must be hard to find someone that you agree with. We have around 10 parties and the choice between 20-30 candidates during elections and I still find it hard to choose the right candidate.

I am a firm believer that we will one day be accountable for our actions, and voting is such an important decision. IMO, if you vote for someone that openly says that they will do something wrong (whatever it may be, no matter which party), you are an accomplice.
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Unread 03-02-2016, 02:19 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe View Post
As someone looking from the outside, I always wonder how Christians can support candidates that want to indiscriminately bomb another nation (or even say that they want to bomb civilians). In any other country, such statements would not be supported by Christians (nor atheists or muslims).

It must also be hard for Americans with the two party system. Must be hard to find someone that you agree with. We have around 10 parties and the choice between 20-30 candidates during elections and I still find it hard to choose the right candidate.

I am a firm believer that we will one day be accountable for our actions, and voting is such an important decision. IMO, if you vote for someone that openly says that they will do something wrong (whatever it may be, no matter which party), you are an accomplice.
Everybody is openly saying they'll do at least one thing wrong, though, because nobody is perfect

So whaddaya do?
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I believe, O Lord, and I confess, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief...
~ Ryan Isaac

Lo! How a rose e'er blooming from tender stem hath sprung,
Of Jesse's lineage coming, as seers of old hath sung,
It came a flower bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half-spent was the night.

Isaiah t'was foretold it, the rose I have in mind,
With Mary we behold it, the Virgin Mother kind,
To show God's love aright, she bore to us a Saviour,
When half-spent was the night.

O flower whose fragrance tender with gladness fills the air,
Dispel with glorious speldour the darkness everywhere,
True man, yet very God! From sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.

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Unread 03-02-2016, 03:47 AM   #30
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Well, I'm glad I don't have to make such a decision
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