Pharoah

03-08-2002, 11:05 AM

Alright, see if you can answer this:

God hardened Pharoah's heart so why does Pharoah get the blame when it comes to disobeying God?

Superman · 03-08-2002, 11:12 AM

Depends on who you ask.

Arminiens say Pharoah hardened his heart first, then God did it as he predicted (as worded by specific pronouns in Exodus where Pharoah first hardened, then later it says God hardened, and the idea of free-will, for God told Moses "But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.").

Calvinists will say God predestined to harden him from the very first plea by Moses because God is sovereign. (Romans 9 is used to base this argument for this idea, for he was "raised up for this purpose" to show the Jews His power, and based on the idea of all things are predestined)

guitarman · 03-08-2002, 11:22 AM

That's about right

. But Calvinist will also say that Pharoah hardened his own heart. There is little difference between God hardening Pharoah's heart and Pharoah hardening his own heart.

Aaron

Superman · 03-08-2002, 11:25 AM

Unless you take the view that Pharoah's own hardening angered God to where He was going to really make him pay, and hardened it further just to punish him with plagues. The Bible does speak about that happening in other places...

guitarman · 03-08-2002, 11:30 AM

If you were Arminian,...yes, you might say that

.

Phil · 03-08-2002, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Unregistered
Alright, see if you can answer this:

God hardened Pharoah's heart so why does Pharoah get the blame when it comes to disobeying God?

The same reason that God softens his Children's hearts so that they can come to Him. We are all still responsible for our actions.

Nate · 03-08-2002, 04:50 PM

Unregistered said: God hardened Pharoah's heart so why does Pharoah get the blame when it comes to disobeying God?

Superman said: Depends on who you ask.

I say: It doesn't matter who you ask, the answer remains the same. Pharoah got the blame because he disobeyed God. It doesn't matter whether he hardened himself or if God hardened him..... he still disobeyed, and he would get the consequences of that no matter where that disobedience came from. Under both the Arminian and the Calvinist systems of theology, we are still responsible for our actions.

Superman · 03-08-2002, 09:45 PM

No, it does matter who you ask, for if God wouldnt let him obey after Pharoah rejected God himself at frst, thats one thing. Thats judgement. But if Pharoah never had a shot to even try to be obedient to the command, then yeah, its a bit unfair. But then I make the statement, if God's will all along was for Pharoah to not let the Jews go for all that time, then Pharoah was actually obedient, and didnt deserve to be condemned for disobedience.

**+Donny** · 03-08-2002, 10:19 PM

actually, im not sure if it says he was punished for his actions with the egyptians, but little does it matter, God can do what he wants

and Pharoah never had the desire for God anyway, so he was going to hell anyway

Beth · 03-08-2002, 10:26 PM

It also gave God the opportunity to show His power, and how much He cares about His people.

guitarman · 03-09-2002, 12:16 AM

I'm with KeyboardFreak. Scott, you need to quit speaking about what is "fair" and what is "not fair." There is no passage in scripture that says that God is fair.

Aaron