Pharoah

**Chrysostom** · 03-11-2002, 09:36 AM

[Superman] Andwer me this:

If God is in control of all our decisions and nothing is up to us, how can He love us and still deny opportunity to eternal life? If He is unwilling for people to accept Him, He has rejected them from the beginning of time. So how is that love for all? It's only love for a few, according to your view.

[Me] Let's look at it from your perspective: if God really does love everyone, why does He send some to hell eternally? Because of their sin. It is the same with Calvinism

**Chrysostom** · 03-11-2002, 09:37 AM

[guitarman] John took the words right out of my mouth

. (In response to Superman)

[Me] * steals words *

**Chrysostom** · 03-11-2002, 09:47 AM

[Superman] OK, there are two ways to determine what God deems as fair. Lets see if we can figure them out.

1. In fairness to God, He can reserve the right to mandate anything regarding everything, for He made everything and they are His. So since He is the Creator, He has every right to pick and choose anyone He wants to redeem, for all people are equal in sin, and no one can claim they have a right to salvation. We are all equal in that regard, as no one can claim they are better than another. So He has the right if, He so chooses, to select of His own decisions, based on whatever he wants, because He is the Creator. Because we see all men are not redeemed, we would have to conclude God did not want the majority of the creation He made,

[Me] I know this is a little minor, but God DID what all of creation. He just didn't predestine all men to be saved. I'm sure that you understand this but I'm just making the clarification for any other readers. Other than that, I'm agreeing totally here

[Superman] and indeed decided long before He made man that He was going to punish Him eternally in Hell, and indeed made man for that very purpose, except for the ones He made to redeem. Because we see so many are not redeemed, we have to assume God did not love everyone, or He would have saved them all. This is His right if He so chooses. But if He works in this manner, He is discriminatory, and shows partiality, but it's all arbitrary. There is no basis for it other than He can. So it's all up to Him who suffers and who lives, for He made it that way. But He would be justified in being a discriminator, since He made man to begin with. But then you have to assume that He must not love nearly everyone who ever lived, for He ultimately made 99% of mankind just to burn in Hell.

[Me] It is not arbitrary; it is based on God's foreknowledge of what will bring Him the most glory

[Superman] 2. In fairness to man, He could forgo this right and extend it to His creation. If He were to do that, it would imply He did indeed love all of His creation, all of mankind, and would mean He never intended for them to burn in Hell when He made them. It would imply that all those going to Hell have chosen to do so, because the opportunity to escape it was there. He made salvation free to all, provided you obey and abide by His wishes. That is the only way you can be saved. Failure to submit to God and turn away from whatever He said displeases Him is considered rebellious and an act of treason, and the only option left is eternal Hell. So if He truly loved all mankind and did not want them to go to Hell, He would either have to make it an opportunity for all and man is free to choose or reject it, or He has to save every single person who ever lived (see fairness #1). Again, since we see not everyone is saved, we have to assume it is because the person didnt want God, not because God didnt want the person. This, He left up to us, if He did indeed impart fairness to man and did not reserve the right to decide as Creator.

[Me] If God ultimately gives the decision to man then we are certainly in trouble, as unregenerate man will not choose God. We would all be ****ed were it not for God's rich and generous grace which He pours upon us!

Also, let's draw a parallel. I believe that God loves all but God sends some to hell and some to heaven based on what will bring Him the most glory. You believe that God loves all but God sends some to hell and some to heaven based on what He knew they would do. In each, God sends some people to hell and some to heaven. In each, God knew when He created who would be worthy of heaven and who would be worthy of hell. Therefore, in each, God created some for hell and some for heaven. The only question, of course, is the causal relationship here. Sin causes ****ation and human wills cause sin. Thus, in both choices the ultimate causal determinant is man.

**Chrysostom** · 03-11-2002, 09:52 AM

[Unregistered] Alright, see if you can answer this:

God hardened Pharoah's heart so why does Pharoah get the blame when it comes to disobeying God?

[Me] This is an excellent question because it really lends itself to a crucial concept in more fully understanding the Christian worldview.

Where does responsibility (answerability) come from? Let's think about our human government and society. If someone commites a murder, how is he/she held accountable? By the government authorities. What right do they have to make that person accountable? They don't really have any; they just do because they are the determinant of responsibility.

It is the same with God. God is the ultimate, end-all determiner of all things. God determines what is true and what is false and God holds people accountable because He is God. Responsibility is based on God, God holds people accountable. That said, God holds Pharoah accountable just because He is God.

It may seem a little confusing because we think of responsibility as being based on some sort of moral code or something. Honestly, that is how we think of it because that is how God generally set it up, not vice versa. God holds us accountable for our actions no matter what, even if it is He who causes us to act that way.

My view comes from Romans 9.

Blessings be with you, friend

biblemanryan · 03-11-2002, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mustbenothing
[Superman] Andwer me this:

If God is in control of all our decisions and nothing is up to us, how can He love us and still deny opportunity to eternal life? If He is unwilling for people to accept Him, He has rejected them from the beginning of time. So how is that love for all? It's only love for a few, according to your view.

[Me] Let's look at it from your perspective: if God really does love everyone, why does He send some to hell eternally? Because of their sin. It is the same with Calvinism

Yes it is because of their sin, but what Scott is trying to say here is that if predestination is right, then those people would never have a chance at being saved, and God would have known that since the beginning of time. God did not creat hell for us, but this would be saying that He created some of us for hell. That doesn't show love for all, which is what God is.

Superman · 03-11-2002, 10:29 AM

Yes, that is what Im trying to say. If God is justified for sending disobedient sinners to Hell, then under predestination, He made them specifically for that purpose from the beginning, so no, He does not love everyone.

Under free wil, he is justified in sending people to Hell because they reject the love He expressed and there is no other alternative than Hell.

See my post on predestination in the Election and freewill thread. I outlined everything, all abacked by scripture.

**Chrysostom** · 03-11-2002, 01:59 PM

[biblemanryan] Yes it is because of their sin, but what Scott is trying to say here is that if predestination is right, then those people would never have a chance at being saved, and God would have known that since the beginning of time.

[Me] And you think that the Arminian view of God wouldn't know this? If God knew what they would choose (as the Arminian point dictates--election through foreknowledge), they never had a chance any more than the view of the unelect presented in Calvinism.

[biblemanryan] God did not creat hell for us, but this would be saying that He created some of us for hell.

[Me] Just like the Bible does

[biblemanryan] That doesn't show love for all, which is what God is.

[Me] With your proposed line of reasoning, we would hit the same problem in Arminianism. By your logic, God wouldn't show love to all because He punishes some (hell), and it would lead to universalism. Clearly that is not the case, so the problem is solved

**Chrysostom** · 03-11-2002, 02:30 PM

[Superman] See my post on predestination in the Election and freewill thread. I outlined everything, all abacked by scripture.

[Me] Can do.