Pharoah

Nate · 03-09-2002, 01:47 PM

What does Rom. 8:29 have to do with Adam??

BTW, I don't even know most of Calvin's teachings..... so I'm probably not really a "Calvinist", per se. I just happen to agree with them on most every topic.

Superman · 03-09-2002, 01:55 PM

"For those He foreknew, He also predestined..."

Calvinsts tell me way in the infinite past God ordained/predestined this all to happen, before man was ever made. So Adam must have been designed with the specific purpose to sin and make everyone sinful.

That said, under Calvinism, God made man to be wicked intentionally in order to hand-pick a few. So if He made them wicked on purpose and only chose some for salvation, that means He always intended for the masses to burn in Hell. It never was meant any other way. So insead of just making man good and leaving it at that (since He controls our wills) He decided it better to make lots of people just to punish them. And no reason other than for His own glory is ever given why.

I fail to see the glory in this...

Nate · 03-09-2002, 01:59 PM

Ahh.... ok.

guitarman · 03-09-2002, 04:49 PM

Superman said:
I fail to see the glory in this...

guitarman says:
Then it's a good thing you're not God!

Aaron

**+Donny** · 03-09-2002, 10:36 PM

scott, u have a problem, u are arguing against scripture, regardless of how "unfair" or confusing it sounds, its truth

Superman · 03-10-2002, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donny
scott, u have a problem, u are arguing against scripture, regardless of how "unfair" or confusing it sounds, its truth

:klol:

guitarman · 03-10-2002, 02:52 PM

oh, be nice, Scott

....

biblemanryan · 03-10-2002, 09:54 PM

Scott,
I must say that you are putting up some good arguements against Calvinism. I am not sure which one is right or whether either of them is, but it is good to see someone stick something to the Calvinist to make them dig deeper to try to explain things.:kgrin: :klol:

Superman · 03-11-2002, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by guitarman
oh, be nice, Scott ....

I didnt mean to be mean, it just struck me funny... :ksmile:

So Dony, am I to assume you believe in scenario number 1?

I'll post them again so everyone knows what I'm talking about:

There are two ways to determine what God deems as fair. Lets see if we can figure them out.

1. In fairness to God, He can reserve the right to mandate anything regarding everything, for He made everything and they are His. So since He is the Creator, He has every right to pick and choose anyone He wants to redeem, for all people are equal in sin, and no one can claim they have a right to salvation. We are all equal in that regard, as no one can claim they are better than another. So He has the right if, He so chooses, to select of His own decisions, based on whatever he wants, because He is the Creator. Because we see all men are not redeemed, we would have to conclude God did not want the majority of the creation He made, and indeed decided long before He made man that He was going to punish Him eternally in Hell, and indeed made man for that very purpose, except for the ones He made to redeem. Because we see so many are not redeemed, we have to assume God did not love everyone, or He would have saved them all. This is His right if He so chooses. But if He works in this manner, He is discriminatory, and shows partiality, but it's all arbitrary. There is no basis for it other than He can. So it's all up to Him who suffers and who lives, for He made it that way. But He would be justified in being a discriminator, since He made man to begin with. But then you have to assume that He must not love nearly everyone who ever lived, for He ultimately made 99% of mankind just to burn in Hell.

2. In fairness to man, He could forgo this right and extend it to His creation. If He were to do that, it would imply He did indeed love all of His creation, all of mankind, and would mean He never intended for them to burn in Hell when He made them. It would imply that all those going to Hell have chosen to do so, because the opportunity to escape it was there. He made salvation free to all, provided you obey and abide by His wishes. That is the only way you can be saved. Failure to submit to God and turn away from whatever He said displeases Him is considered rebellious and an act of treason, and the only option left is eternal Hell. So if He truly loved all mankind and did not want them to go to Hell, He would either have to make it an opportunity for all and man is free to choose or reject it, or He has to save every single person who ever lived (see fairness #1). Again, since we see not everyone is saved, we have to assume it is because the person didnt want God, not because God didnt want the person. This, He left up to us, if He did indeed impart fairness to man and did not reserve the right to decide as Creator.

So the only way we can determine which fairness rule applies, is to see what God says regarding His will, who He loved, and what He did about it. So we need to see scriptures.

Superman · 03-11-2002, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by guitarman
Superman said:
I fail to see the glory in this...

guitarman says:
Then it's a good thing you're not God!

Aaron

What is so glorious about creating people to disbelieve just because He wanted to send them to Hell? To make the other people feel special that He's not sending them to Hell? That's the only glory I could see...

Wow... What does this mean then?

18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."

20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

**Chrysostom** · 03-11-2002, 09:28 AM

About Adam:
The argument that Adam had "free will" is a different type. Now our wills are enslaved to sin, but this is due to the fall. Adam was not born into the fallen state, thus Adam might have had "free will" in that sense.

No, Adam was not given ultimate control over his own salvation.

**Chrysostom** · 03-11-2002, 09:29 AM

[Superman] What is so glorious about creating people to disbelieve just because He wanted to send them to Hell? To make the other people feel special that He's not sending them to Hell? That's the only glory I could see...

[Me] The Bible says that God did it to display His power to the elect, so you've basically got it, there

**Chrysostom** · 03-11-2002, 09:32 AM

[guitargirl3740] I think that what God did was to speed things up..if you read the scriptures..Pharoh's a pretty messed up kid and i think he would've hardened his heart anyway..

[Me] If God hardened his heart, that must mean that there was a change, right? And the only viable change is that Pharoah was going to pick something other than what he eventually did, by the definition of "hardened." That said, Pharoah was going to let the Israelites go, but God hardened his heart and prevented it, then bringing upon more plagues and such.

[guitargirl3740] but if God wouldn't have done it..think about what might've happened to the Hebrews when they were traveling? Pharoh might've pursued them..sending an army to capture or kill them..but instead..God decided to harden his heart and made a way so that Pharoh would never chase after them again..why? because he was drowned in the water!

[Me] God's hardening of Pharoah's heart is what caused many of the plagues and such. It wasn't talking about God preventing Pharoah from pursuing the Israelites

guitarman · 03-11-2002, 09:33 AM

John took the words right out of my mouth

. (In response to Superman)

**Chrysostom** · 03-11-2002, 09:35 AM

[Superman] Actually, if you believe all things have been predestined,

[Me] I do not. The extent of the predestination is soteriological; any further predestination (on a grand scale) I don't know of currently.

[Superman] then you have to believe God caused Adam to sin intentionally, since there is no free will.

[Me] Adam's will caused Adam to sin

[Superman] And since Adam sin we are all now sinners, that would mean God did that with the intent to make all men wicked. So if that is true, He did make man wicked intentionally.

In order for God to predestin you to be saved from something, He has to predestin the condition that you are to be saved from. So He would have had to make man wicked by His design. So in order for predestination to work, you have to retract your statement and admit, yes, God had always planned to make man wicked form the beginning, and still blame them for it.

[Me] The condition we are in could have been through predestination or foreknowledge; we don't have enough information to determine either way.

[Superman] See my post on the 2 versions of fairness above, and let me know what you think...

[Me] Will do