Pharoah

**+Donny** · 03-09-2002, 01:03 AM

it refers to the difference between the old and new covenants

im trying to get Luke to add it to the terms page

Superman · 03-09-2002, 07:11 AM

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Originally posted by guitarman
I'm with KeyboardFreak. Scott, you need to quit speaking about what is "fair" and what is "not fair." There is no passage in scripture that says that God is fair.

Aaron

And I wish you guys would stop calling God prejudiced and a discriminator of people.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

2 Chronicles 19:7
Now let the fear of the Lord be upon you. Judge carefully, for with the Lord our God there is no injustice or partiality or bribery."

Actually, there is planty of verses about "fair"... For God has given the definition to us in the Bible, and amounts to impartiality and equality. So we get the idea of fairness from Him... So He must abide by those same rules, for that is what He said was fair.

Look at all these scriptures regarding "fairness"

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?sea...h&searchpage=0

If God hardened Pharoah for any reeason or no reason but His good purpose, so be it. Moses' account shows that Pharoah was a wicked man from the beginning, and I do not believe God makes any man wicked, but uses and judges what is already there.

Travis · 03-09-2002, 10:15 AM

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Originally posted by Superman
And I wish you guys would stop calling God prejudiced and a discriminator of people.

Where did anyone do that? We just said that He is just according to Him not necessarily us.

In response to your verses:
He is just and perfect because he is God, not because he follows our definition of "just." Many people think it is unjust that being homosexual is considered wrong, does that matter to God? Does that make Him unjust?
Just in His definition, not ours.

Quote:

Originally posted by Superman
Actually, there is planty of verses about "fair"... For God has given the definition to us in the Bible, and amounts to impartiality and equality. So we get the idea of fairness from Him... So He must abide by those same rules, for that is what He said was fair.

No no no!! God doesn't have to do anything, He is Almighty God!! Those are directions for us humans and they don't apply to the God of the universe.

Quote:

Originally posted by Superman
Look at all these scriptures regarding "fairness"

Again, by His definition not necessarily ours.
Also remember that to be fair by our definition would be impossible because so many humans disagree on what is fair.

Superman · 03-09-2002, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Travis

Again, by His definition not necessarily ours.
Also remember that to be fair by our definition would be impossible because so many humans disagree on what is fair.

My point was many of these verses pertaining to "fair" were instructed by God. He defined what was fair. So if He defined it, then how is it man's idea?

Travis · 03-09-2002, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superman

My point was many of these verses pertaining to "fair" were instructed by God. He defined what was fair. So if He defined it, then how is it man's idea?

Oh ok yeah, I see what you are saying. But I still say that is just the instructions for fairness for us, which are necessary since we aren't omniscient. God, of course, being just that needs no rules to be totally just... plus I mean He is God after all, I just don't see why any rules would apply to Him.

Superman · 03-09-2002, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Travis
Oh ok yeah, I see what you are saying. But I still say that is just the instructions for fairness for us, which are necessary since we aren't omniscient. God, of course, being just that needs no rules to be totally just... plus I mean He is God after all, I just don't see why any rules would apply to Him.

OK, there are two ways to determine what God deems as fair. Lets see if we can figure them out.

1. In fairness to God, He can reserve the right to mandate anything regarding everything, for He made everything and they are His. So since He is the Creator, He has every right to pick and choose anyone He wants to redeem, for all people are equal in sin, and no one can claim they have a right to salvation. We are all equal in that regard, as no one can claim they are better than another. So He has the right if, He so chooses, to select of His own decisions, based on whatever he wants, because He is the Creator. Because we see all men are not redeemed, we would have to conclude God did not want the majority of the creation He made, and indeed decided long before He made man that He was going to punish Him eternally in Hell, and indeed made man for that very purpose, except for the ones He made to redeem. Because we see so many are not redeemed, we have to assume God did not love everyone, or He would have saved them all. This is His right if He so chooses. But if He works in this manner, He is discriminatory, and shows partiality, but it's all arbitrary. There is no basis for it other than He can. So it's all up to Him who suffers and who lives, for He made it that way. But He would be justified in being a discriminator, since He made man to begin with. But then you have to assume that He must not love nearly everyone who ever lived, for He ultimately made 99% of mankind just to burn in Hell.

2. In fairness to man, He could forgo this right and extend it to His creation. If He were to do that, it would imply He did indeed love all of His creation, all of mankind, and would mean He never intended for them to burn in Hell when He made them. It would imply that all those going to Hell have chosen to do so, because the opportunity to escape it was there. He made salvation free to all, provided you obey and abide by His wishes. That is the only way you can be saved. Failure to submit to God and turn away from whatever He said displeases Him is considered rebellious and an act of treason, and the only option left is eternal Hell. So if He truly loved all mankind and did not want them to go to Hell, He would either have to make it an opportunity for all and man is free to choose or reject it, or He has to save every single person who ever lived (see fairness #1). Again, since we see not everyone is saved, we have to assume it is because the person didnt want God, not because God didnt want the person. This, He left up to us, if He did indeed impart fairness to man and did not reserve the right to decide as Creator.

So the only way we can determine which fairness rule applies, is to see what God says regarding His will, who He loved, and what He did about it. So we need to see scriptures.

guitargirl3740 · 03-09-2002, 11:48 AM

I think that what God did was to speed things up..if you read the scriptures..Pharoh's a pretty messed up kid and i think he would've hardened his heart anyway..but if God wouldn't have done it..think about what might've happened to the Hebrews when they were traveling? Pharoh might've pursued them..sending an army to capture or kill them..but instead..God decided to harden his heart and made a way so that Pharoh would never chase after them again..why? because he was drowned in the water!!:kduh::klol:

guitargirl3740 · 03-09-2002, 11:55 AM

sorry..that was just a random little message there! haha:klol:

Nate · 03-09-2002, 12:28 PM

Hey Scott.

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Originally posted by Superman
if God wouldn't let him obey after Pharoah rejected God himself at frst, thats one thing. Thats judgement.

Agreed.

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But if Pharoah never had a shot to even try to be obedient to the command, then yeah, its a bit unfair.

Even if he had a shot, do you think he would have obeyed?? You admit that Pharoah was a wicked man from the beginning... what difference does it make if God gives him a chance to obey or not??? He still disobeys and he still deserves punishment for that action.

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But then I make the statement, if God's will all along was for Pharoah to not let the Jews go for all that time, then Pharoah was actually obedient, and didnt deserve to be condemned for disobedience.

Here's where I get to quote Paul.

Romans 9:17-20
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

If God's purpose for Pharoah was for him to be unrighteous and disobedient from the very beginning, would God be unjust or unfair in punishing him for that?? Let me quote Paul again:

Romans 3:5
But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

If Pharoah's unrighteous disobedience was purposefully willed by God so that His righteousness would be made known..... would God be unjust in punishing Pharoah for said disobedience??? NO! "For otherwise, how will God judge the world?"

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If God hardened Pharoah for any reason or no reason but His good purpose, so be it. Moses' account shows that Pharoah was a wicked man from the beginning, and I do not believe God makes any man wicked, but uses and judges what is already there.

Hehe... remember where our doctrine starts, Scott. It's all about the T man... all about the T.

We are all wicked men from the beginning... none of us are any more righteous than the next man. God would be perfectly fair and perfectly just in sending us all to hell. God doesn't MAKE any man wicked, but I think He KEEPS some men wicked. He hardens them so that they will never believe. Is He unjust in doing this?? Certainly not. He's God, He can harden whoever He wants to. Likewise, He can show mercy to whoever He wants to.

Superman · 03-09-2002, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KeyboardFreak
Hey Scott.

Hehe... remember where our doctrine starts, Scott. It's all about the T man... all about the T.

...God doesn't MAKE any man wicked, but I think He KEEPS some men wicked...

Actually, if you believe all things have been predestined, then you have to believe God caused Adam to sin intentionally, since there is no free will. And since Adam sin we are all now sinners, that would mean God did that with the intent to make all men wicked. So if that is true, He did make man wicked intentionally.

In order for God to predestin you to be saved from something, He has to predestin the condition that you are to be saved from. So He would have had to make man wicked by His design. So in order for predestination to work, you have to retract your statement and admit, yes, God had always planned to make man wicked form the beginning, and still blame them for it.

See my post on the 2 versions of fairness above, and let me know what you think...

Nate · 03-09-2002, 01:22 PM

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Originally posted by Superman
Actually, if you believe all things have been predestined,

I'm not entirely sure that I do believe that. It all comes back to the infamous "sock" argument. I find it very hard to imagine that God predestines what color socks I put on in the morning.

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then you have to believe God caused Adam to sin intentionally, since there is no free will.

I believe that Adam and Eve had free will, but after they sinned, they fell into a state of depravity and slavery to sin. Thus dooming the rest of mankind to the same plight.

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In order for God to predestin you to be saved from something, He has to predestin the condition that you are to be saved from.

Why?

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See my post on the 2 versions of fairness above, and let me know what you think...

Okey dokey.

Nate · 03-09-2002, 01:33 PM

Ok, Scott. What I'm seeing mostly from your post about the two fairnesses is this: Lack of free will = God does not love us; Free will = God loves us. It seems as if you are saying that if God were to sovereignly decree who would be saved (as we claim He does), that He could not be loving in doing so. On the other hand, you seem to be saying that if God loves His creation, He must allow them the free will to choose to love Him back or not.

I don't think either of those equations tell the full story. God is love, but He is also holy and just. He cannot simply save all men or He would have to sacrifice His justice and holiness for His love. Similarly, He cannot leave a depraved and sinful human race to simply fend for themselves and choose Him, because nobody ever would. That would mean that NONE would be saved, so God would have to sacrifice His love and punish all men.

The fact that all men are equally enslaved to sin and that some men somehow overcome that bondage while others remain in it is a strange thing. What would make one man realize his bondage while another completely denies it?? Are some of us more susceptible to God's calling than others??

I believe Calvinism offers the only feasible explanation for this. God sovereignly rescued His elect from their bondage of sin because He knew that they could never escape it on their own.

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Again, since we see not everyone is saved, we have to assume it is because the person didn't want God, not because God didn't want the person.

Again.. why would some people want God and other not want Him??? If we are all sinners in bondage to our sinful nature... why would any of us ever want God??

Superman · 03-09-2002, 01:37 PM

Andwer me this:

If God is in control of all our decisions and nothing is up to us, how can He love us and still deny opportunity to eternal life? If He is unwilling for people to accept Him, He has rejected them from the beginning of time. So how is that love for all? It's only love for a few, according to your view.

Nate · 03-09-2002, 01:39 PM

I honestly don't know.

Superman · 03-09-2002, 01:46 PM

And saying Adam had free will contradicts Calvinism according to Calvin's interpretation of Romans 8:29.

That said, under Calvinism, God made man to be wicked intentionally in order to hand-pick a few. So if He made them wicked on purpose and only chose some for salvation, that means He always intended for the masses to burn in Hell. It never was meant any other way. So insead of just making man good and leaving it at that (since He controls our wills) He decided it better to make lots of people just to punish them.