[tenwatt]

I wanted to give this a little more time since I didn’t have any to spare last night. I first want to say that I’m a lyrics guy. I love a well written verse and will spend hours diving into a great set of lyrics. I love the hymns. My most played praise and worship album on my iPod is Asend the Hill’s “Take the World, But Give Me Jesus” which is a modern take on a few classic hymns. Lyrically, there is nothing better than the hymns. I can read them and be moved to tears. The beauty of the poetry inspires me to praise God. It’s tough for me to listen to them in their original form though. I don’t enjoy that style of music and it does not inspire me to praise God. As brilliantly crafted as the lyrics are, singing a hymn in its original form inspires me to do nothing but sleep.

Is this song (“Awaken Me” by Jesus Culture) a lyrical masterpiece? Not at all. Does reading the lyrics inspire me to praise God? Yes. Does singing the song inspire me to praise God? Yes. I’m sure it could be argued that “Singing ‘What a Wonderful World’ by Louis Armstrong inspires me to praise God so let’s just use Louis Armstrong’s songs in church” but we’re not talking about a song written for secular purposes. We’re talking about a song that was intended to be used to praise God.

I can’t force you to care for the song, nor do I have an agenda to try and force that upon you, but I would like to counter your arguments and hopefully explain why the song inspires me as a praise and worship song.

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

"Fill this place" is redundant as God is already omnipresent.

"Fill your people" implies there is something yet to be given although the Holy Spirit has already been given to all believers since the early chapters of Acts.

"Our hearts respond to your Spirit falling." Again, didn't the Spirit already fall on us a long time ago?

"You're awakening our hearts." Yet another thing that sounds like it happened on conversion to me.

I can’t box these lyrics in like that. Yes, God is omnipresent. And yes, the Holy Spirit has already been given. To me this song is celebrating the CONSTANT pouring out of the Spirit to even the newest believer. It’s not that the Holy Spirit was poured from a vessel that is now empty. The Holy Spirit is in a constant state of pouring out. The same goes for the “awakening our hearts”. I don’t know about you but every once in a while I need to knock the dust of my faith. If not for a constant reassurance from the word, works, and testimonies my faith would be pretty weak. I praise God for awakening my heart. For stirring my emotions. For reassuring me of His constance. That’s what this group of lyrics seems to be trying to express, IMO.

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

I have no idea what "you are shining" is supposed to be saying. I recall no one in Scripture ever praising God with anything like "God, you're so shiny."…
Words of praise(-ish):
I suppose "you are shining like the sun" and "you awaken me", but those are a stretch and nothing else even comes close to actually expressing praise.

Using a metaphor of “shining light the sun” doesn’t seem like to much of a stretch for the “Light of the World” to me.

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

More importantly and more fundamentally, nothing in this song actually seems like worship or a coherent supplication. If I were to categorize the lines in this song, it would go something like this:

Incoherent supplications:
"Let our praise be a highway"
"Let our lives be a pure reflection of you" (Doesn't this depend on *you* being obedient?)
"Fill this place"
"Touch our cities"
"Fill your people"
"Shine Your light on us"
"Come like you promised" (He DID, see the Gospels)
"Come fall upon us" (He DID, see Acts)

Non-sentences which, as non-sentences, can't actually say anything:
"Eyes to see and ears to hear you calling"
"A new song rising joined by the sound of Heaven's praise"

I understand that these are incomplete sentences grammatically. That doesn’t keep me from being able to examine them and extract meaning from them. And, yes, our lives being a reflection of God is our freewill, but I think it’s okay to send a prayer out asking for God’s help in living this pure life. That’s what that line means to me.

Calling upon the Holy Spirit to “come like You promised” isn’t a stretch for me either. This song, in short, could be summed up by a conversation with God that reads “Lord, we thank You that you would COME and AWAKEN our dead hearts. Let our praise be pleasing to You, that I may dwell in Your presense.”

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

Inward-directed (I'm tempted to say narcissistic) rambling:
The category which is most confusing/disturbing to me, which consists of two subcategories...

Reporting on the "worship experience" as if an outsider:
"Our hearts respond to Your spirit falling" (Ok... are your hearts responding, or are you just saying they are? If they are, why do you need to say it?)
"Heaven is falling as we are declaring Your name" (Which reads as "Wow, we're making Heaven fall!")

Making vows to God
"We'll sing aloud with all our passion" (Related to the previous category of saying what you're doing rather than just doing it, this is saying what you're going to do rather than just doing it.)

Then why sing anything at all. Let’s just live in appreciation of God’s work and let that be enough. Was Psalm 150 “reporting” or “making vows” or was it instructing?

Psalm 150
1Praise the LORD.a
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
6Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

Couldn’t this portion of “Awaken Me” be taken as instruction or a reminder to sing aloud with all of our passion? That’s how I take it.

I’m not a debater. I don’t have time to argue points like these and, honestly, this post has taken much more of my time than I would like to spend on a message board on the internet. I would like to discuss this further but my post will be much more brief and probably won’t be a priority in my life. I just wanted to give that disclaimer in case I end up forgeting that this thread exist. ;^)

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by tenwatt

Couldn’t this portion of “Awaken Me” be taken as instruction or a reminder to sing aloud with all of our passion? That’s how I take it.

I suppose it could be, but it isn't written as such. Psalm 150 is written as an imperative/exhortation to praise God. "Awaken Me" is written as a description of what we feel as we praise God and a promise to praise God in the future.

There is some element of the latter in the Psalms. But as far as I know, never without the former. And never without declaring something about God's attributes or works.

It's not my intention to condemn a style of writing which appears in the Psalms as well. Any single line of this song might be fine in another context. My concern is that the whole is *less* than the sum of its parts.

To provide an example, the line "we're singing loud for you, God" might work in some song somewhere. I wouldn't use it if I was writing songs, but whatever, I wouldn't condemn a song just for having this line. But if *every* line of a song was the equivalent of "we're singing loud for you, God", then the song is about us, not about God. And worse than that, it's about what we *want* to be true rather than what *is* true. Maybe some people aren't singing at all. Maybe no one is singing. Saying something is so doesn't make it so, and if it is so, why do you need to say it?

I don't tell my wife "I'm working hard for you" while I'm in the kitchen cooking. If I am working hard for her, I don't need to say it, she can see it. And if I'm not, then saying it doesn't help. I could tell her all day I'm working hard for her, but if all I do is tell her, then I'm not really working at all.

I think the danger of songs like this is spending more time telling God what we're doing, feeling, will do or will feel than actually doing it and feeling it.

Again, the point isn't that lines like this automatically kill a song. The point is that they need substance to carry them and this song, to me, has little substance.

And again, the point isn't to tear down this song. It's one song. It makes basically zero difference whether this song is the worst song ever, the best song ever, or somewhere in between. The point is to address what I think is a trend of talking more about us than God in worship songs.

To give another example of a song that makes no sense to me and seems more about us than God...

I’ve got a river of living water a fountain that never will run dry
It’s open heavens we’re releasing and we will never be denied

Cause we’re stirring up deep deep wells, we’re stirring up deep deep waters
We’re going to dance in the river, dance in the river
Cause we’re stirring up deep deep wells, we’re stirring up deep deep waters
We’re going to jump in the river, jump in and everybody singing now

Deep cries out to deep cries out to, deep cries out to deep cries out to
So we cry out to, we cry out to, you Jesus

We’re falling into deeper waters, calling out to you
We’re walking into deeper waters, going after you

What does any of this mean or have to do with God?

*We're* releasing open heavens (whatever that means)? *We're* stirring up deep wells (whatever that means)? Are we in charge now of what God does?

And we will never be denied? Really? If I ask for a Ferrari, I'm going to get it?

And then the other half of the song is just a (mostly nonsensical) description of our actions: we're going to dance in the river and jump in the river, we're falling and walking into deeper waters, we cry out to Jesus.

So this song attributes some kind of power to us, asserts some sort of right to never be denied, speaks utter nonsense, and then describes our actions. None of this seems like worship to me. I'm not trying to set myself up as the judge of what is and isn't worship. That's for God to decide. But I think we need to examine the songs we use nonetheless. In fact, I think care in what we sing is in itself an act of worship. And this song just seems careless.

Or to take another Jesus Culture song:

I see the cloud, I step in
I want to see Your glory as Moses did
Flashes of light and rolls of thunder,

I'm not afraid
I'm not afraid

Show me Your glory, show me Your glory, my God
Show me Your glory, show me Your glory
I'm awed by Your beauty, lost in Your eyes
I long to walk in Your presence like Jesus did
Your glory surrounds me and I'm overwhelmed

I'm not afraid
I'm not afraid

Show me Your glory, show me your glory, my God
Show me Your glory, show me Your glory

I long to look on the face of the One that I love
Long to stay in your presence, it's where I belong

Oh how we love you, Oh how we love you
Oh how we love you Jesus

Ignoring the first line, which makes no sense to me at all. Next two lines seem fine. Then "I'm not afraid"... which seems a bit odd since everyone who has seen God's glory has been terrified by it. Then God's beauty, which is mentioned in Scripture, but what on Earth does it mean to be "lost in God's eyes"? Then a supplication for something you already have. Didn't Jesus emphasize that we had the same access to the Father as he did? We *do* walk in his presence like Jesus did.

Again, there's stuff kinda like this in the Psalms. See Psalm 27. But along with one verse kinda like this song, Psalm 27 also has lines like "The LORD is my light and my salvation" and "The LORD is the stronghold of my life" and "Teach me your way, O LORD". It's always more about God than us. My worry is that songs like these are more about us than God.

[Reuben]

Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute

I really like Jesus Culture but honestly so much of their theology (which I absolutely disagree with) seeps into their music that it's difficult for me to use most of their stuff corporately. it just takes way too much scriptural gymnastics to get their lyrics to work. it's like a ton of Christian bumper sticker slogans haphazardly taped together into a song. though again, I really like their music and admire their passion and their musicianship. I just think they are off their rocker with the current modern worship God is my big huggy BFF movement.

+1

I'm in much of the same boat. I have a love/hate relationship with Jesus Culture.

As far as musicianship is concerned, they're cream of the crop in the worship scene. Really top notch stuff.

Lyrically/theologically ... a lot of their material is pretty hard to stomach for me. ("Dance With Me", for example, flies right past BFF and goes all the way to BF)

As for this particular song, I'd say mostly the same: excellent musicianship, but lacking in content, IMHO.

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

Psalm 73 talks about God quite a bit:

"God is good to Israel" (Praising God for His character)

"until I went into the sanctuary of God; then I discerned their end" (God is the source of knowledge)

"Truly you set them in slippery places; you make them fall to ruin" (God overpowers the wicked)

"Nevertheless, I am continually with you; you hold my right hand" (Recognizing God's omnipresence rather than asking Him to be present)

"You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will receive me to glory" (Praising God for what He does)

As does "Awaken Me":

Fill this place oh King of glory
Touch our cities and fill Your people
A new day dawning, You are shining like the sun, arising
You awaken me, You awaken me.

Eyes to see and ears to hear You calling
Our hearts respond to Your Spirit falling

You're awakening our hearts to Your kingdom
Heaven is falling as we are declaring Your name
We sing it loud with all of our passion
King of glory, come and fill this place.

Let our lives speak
A pure reflection of You, King of glory
Shine Your light on us, bless Your people
A new song rising, joined by the sound of heavens praise
You awaken me, you awaken me.

Come, like you promised
Come, fall upon us

"King of glory", "Your kingdom", "Your Spirit", "Your people", "You are shining", etc...
You previously mentioned all of this "we" talk in the song. "We we we, us us us." was your exact quote.
To me, it's a song about what God is doing to "us" as "we" praise Him.

As far as "asking [God] to be present", I don't think that's a snub towards knowing that God is omnipresent, but rather it's a heart prayer from someone who is open to welcoming the already present God, maybe someone singing praises to God for the first time.

I do admit that it's probably a song that would fit better in more charismatic-friendly circumstances, but it's hardly unBiblical nor "We we we, us us us." centered. imho.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by Reuben

("Dance With Me", for example, flies right past BFF and goes all the way to BF)

I had not heard of this song. My life just got a little weirder knowing this exists.

Again, there's stuff *kinda* like this in Scripture. See Hosea 2.

But in Scripture, God makes the first move. We most certainly do not. And in Scripture, the "romance" is about righteousness, justice, love, mercy and faithfulness, not dancing. And I'm really not sure how dancing could be a metaphor for those things, nor the line "romance me." Hosea talks of us coming back to a God who is pursuing us, not us propositioning God.

[tenwatt]

I agree that all the songs that have been mentioned since my last post are very awkward. I don't classify them in the same group as "Awaken Me" though.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by tenwatt

I agree that all the songs that have been mentioned since my last post are very awkward. I don't classify them in the same group as "Awaken Me" though.

So there is a line, we just draw it in different places.

I can live with that.

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

So there is a line, we just draw it in different places.

I can live with that.

Agreed.

There are some Jesus Culture (and other artists') songs that I won't touch and wouldn't bring to my team and congregation.
Other songs, like "Awaken Me" I may find okay and you may not. I'm not saying that I do find it okay, I just heard the song for the first time yesterday and I'd need to check it out more before I do anything with it.

I myself have to have a discerning ear for lyrics as I can easily let a cool riff catch my ear before anything else, but I don't want to do songs in church that have cool riffs and little substance.

[thesteve]

The test I try to apply for whether or not a song is good or bad I call the "Faith Hill test". The question is, "could Faith Hill hit number one with this song?" If the answer is yes, then I try to avoid it.

[tenwatt]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

So there is a line, we just draw it in different places.

I can live with that.

Originally Posted by gtrdave

Agreed.

There are some Jesus Culture (and other artists') songs that I won't touch and wouldn't bring to my team and congregation.
Other songs, like "Awaken Me" I may find okay and you may not. I'm not saying that I do find it okay, I just heard the song for the first time yesterday and I'd need to check it out more before I do anything with it.

I myself have to have a discerning ear for lyrics as I can easily let a cool riff catch my ear before anything else, but I don't want to do songs in church that have cool riffs and little substance.

Agreed also. I would never lead our congregation in singing the song "Dance with Me" by Jesus Culture but I would also not lead them in singing a traditional, acapella version of Thomas Chisolm's "Great is Thy Faithfulness".

[DaGeek]

Originally Posted by thesteve

The test I try to apply for whether or not a song is good or bad I call the "Faith Hill test". The question is, "could Faith Hill hit number one with this song?" If the answer is yes, then I try to avoid it.

Originally Posted by tenwatt

but I would also not lead them in singing a traditional, acapella version of Thomas Chisolm's "Great is Thy Faithfulness".

Actually... I totally could see that happening at some point . Lately, I've been more and more regularly inspired to break off the music and just lead acapella for a few bars/lines of a song. It's pretty fantastic.

As far as the original discussion, I'm in agreement that there's definitely a line --- I wouldn't sing "Dance With Me" in a congregation ever. I like the song, but it's not something I think would be contextually appropriate. Songs like that, I think (not certain), come a lot from Song of Solomon, which is a great book of the Bible, and, while these songs do use romantic elements ("Won't you dance with me O lover of my soul"), I don't believe that they're actually intended to jump into the BF waters. It's just that, to me, romantic love is perhaps the strongest expression of love that humans experience, so that's how it comes out, even if it's not "God's my boyfriend." I don't see the majority of Jesus Culture people as being "God's my boyfriend" people, but rather "I adore my Savior, and this is the best way I know how to express it." Loving God isn't supposed to be a dusty, boring, systematic, formulaic affair, and it's only right to express strong emotion if you have it (some aren't emotional, and I can understand that).

I'm not saying this to condemn anybody's style of worship by any means; however, look a little deeper and see that maybe things aren't exactly what they appear on the surface. (Granted, I also do want to admit that there are creepy people who are the "God is my boyfriend" people, and that's just wrong, and heck, maybe some at Jesus Culture are victim to that, but I just don't believe that the majority are.)

[tenwatt]

Originally Posted by DaGeek

Actually... I totally could see that happening at some point . Lately, I've been more and more regularly inspired to break off the music and just lead acapella for a few bars/lines of a song. It's pretty fantastic.

We do that all the time I was just specifically naming a hymn, that is overflowing with scripture based praise, that I would NOT do because of the style.

[DaGeek]

Originally Posted by tenwatt

We do that all the time I was just specifically naming a hymn, that is overflowing with scripture based praise, that I would NOT do because of the style.

Understood . I agree with you on that --- we would very very likely never do that as well. I misunderstood it to mean you wouldn't use acapella (which, of course, is up to you guys and there's no problem with that anyway), so I was commenting on how we have in small parts before.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute

I really like Jesus Culture but honestly so much of their theology (which I absolutely disagree with) seeps into their music...

This is true for me too.