[Ben Toast]

Originally Posted by rocket955

Well my church is in disagreemnet with you.

I wasn't trying in any way to be in disagreement with anyone's church. Again, in some areas it may be fitting to leave a building open (as long as it's supervised, of course) for homeless or people and those in dire circumstances, but in most of America's cities today it would serve only as an open invitation to crime.

[TheProdigalModern]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

The doorkeeper/keymaster of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, the church that houses the tomb of Christ, has held the keys to the place since Saladin. Locks up at night. Opens up in the morning. Somehow, I doubt the existence of a Golden Age wherein churches were always open to various and sundry.

Speaking of history, during the golden age of Byzantium, when the lines between the Church and state were veeeeery blurry, the state operated hospitals, distributed food to the needy and even had houses of hospitality so that prostitutes could leave the life if they wanted to. No need to sleep in the church.

***

Frankly, some of the liturgical accessories (candle stands, censors, icons, the tabernacle, etc.) are too expensive to just allow anyone to wander in during the middle of the night and take or vandalize. If someone is there during the day, I very much support having the temple/sanctuary area open for prayers, but there's no need to invite disaster on oneself. Churches can offer services to the poor without risking losing thousands of dollars -- for example, my old church had a food pantry that Father would allow people access to at any time of day.

Likewise, if someone is trying to get into the church because it's cold, it's easy to put them up in a hotel for the night until they can find a proper shelter (in fact, in my current city an alliance of churches collects money each month and gives it to a fund at the police station so that officers can give homeless people a voucher to stay in a motel in town). Give them rides. Etc. Insisting that either you let someone sleep in the church worship space or you don't care about them is displaying a lack of creative problem solving.

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by rocket955

I realize that there are problems dealing with relationships (desperation) and you have to protect your ground in a fallen world and in bigger cities the problems magnify. With that said I think we take care of each other. Times are hard enough. I think that pastor would have let them in if he knew the situation. It just struck me wrong and the general agnostic population. They pass quick judgment on Christians in general.I think we are in the spotlight.

There's a local mission in our city that specifically tends to the needs of the poor, homeless, helpless, etc...and THEY do not keep their doors open 24/7 for anyone who wants because they want to provide a safe haven for those who want help, not for those who want to cause problems.

There is a difference. We are not loving people less by limiting access to shelter. On the contrary, we are acting as wise shepherds by protecting the sheep from the wolves.

[TheProdigalModern]

Originally Posted by gtrdave

There's a local mission in our city that specifically tends to the needs of the poor, homeless, helpless, etc...and THEY do not keep their doors open 24/7 for anyone who wants because they want to provide a safe haven for those who want help, not for those who want to cause problems.

There is a difference. We are not loving people less by limiting access to shelter. On the contrary, we are acting as wise shepherds by protecting the sheep from the wolves.

Amen and amen.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by rocket955

Why the anger, and I'm not sugesting that you leave your comfort zone.

I am not angry. What you are suggesting as biblical, is not, and is unsafe, and pending your location, illegal.

You decide to make up a false dilemna of what churches "should" do, and a mythical past per you, and hold that standard as the word of God.

When pointed out that it is unloving, unwise and foolish, you falsely accuse your brothers in Christ. Frankly, you are not being honest, or paying attention to reason or scripture.

You are also being a legalist. You also are couching insults. What is my comfort zone? Do you even know?

Would you happen to know that I have spent near a decade in homeless and urban ministries? So I might actually be concerned about foolhardy suggestions that could result in deaths of the least of Jesus brethren. Let's call a spade a spade. That is precisely what would be the result of what you are suggesting.

I might add that in my younger years I have been without a home and spent some time on the streets. So I am familiar with the plight of the homeless from a couple different perspectives.

Picture a dark alley. Picture the sorts of people who would choose to hang out there. Now picture making your church into one more place for junkies to shoot up and thugs to abuse people. Because that is what this sort of thing is. It creates a situation that is purely unregulated and will be survival of the brutest. Is it easier than actually doing something to help? Yeah. Is it an idea that harms the very people it pays lip service to helping? It is a cheap band aid to the conscience without getting your hands dirty actually caring for people.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by gtrdave

There is a difference. We are not loving people less by limiting access to shelter. On the contrary, we are acting as wise shepherds by protecting the sheep from the wolves.

Two things: 1. you're not even limiting access to shelter; you're directing people towards appropriate shelter.

2. I think where we can really foul up, though, is setting the default to "all people want to scam/harm us." That attitude doesn't seem to be Christian at all, even if it is (occasionally) true.

[1/2-Fast Player]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

I think where we can really foul up, though, is setting the default to "all people want to scam/harm us." That attitude doesn't seem to be Christian at all, even if it is (occasionally) true.

You have a point, but remember that sheep attract wolves. If we bring together a flock of needy sheep into a shelter, that flock only has to attract one wolf for there to be a problem. It therefore behooves us to provide sheepdogs; i.e., ensure that the sheep are protected. Most churches aren't equipped to do this, nor are its people trained. It's often far safer for the ones we're trying to help if we assist them in getting to those ministries that can do the job right and safely.

[gracioushelper]

Do we really need stuff in our churches that cost thousands of dollars? I mean...really? We're so used to having things comfortable in America, it's disgusting. We don't have to live in fear of being prosecuted by the law for openly worshiping our God.
One thing churches could do, and this makes perfect sense if the building was built this way, is to lock all the rooms where expensive stuff is, and open the rest of the church up. Another option is to have the church open 24/7 with video cameras in it with a live feed going straight to the police station?

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by gracioushelper

Do we really need stuff in our churches that cost thousands of dollars? I mean...really? We're so used to having things comfortable in America, it's disgusting. We don't have to live in fear of being prosecuted by the law for openly worshiping our God.
One thing churches could do, and this makes perfect sense if the building was built this way, is to lock all the rooms where expensive stuff is, and open the rest of the church up. Another option is to have the church open 24/7 with video cameras in it with a live feed going straight to the police station?

1) I don't think the police would do that as you would effectively be increasing their workload using them as private security guards.
2) For me, it is all about keeping people safe. Leaving a church open is not safe for homeless people. I love the idea of churches running rescue missions, but their are needed precautions to make them safe for the occupants. An open, abandoned building is an invitation to drug dealers and trouble makers.
3) being fake disgusted because churches have sound systems so that the music and sermon can actually be heard is silly. It is required to make the church function. I am no fan of ultra-fancy churches, but the functional parts to make a church functional can be quite pricey. Air conditioning systems are expensive. I have been at a church where someone jacked the AC off of the side of the building. That was pricey, and the place was MISERABLE until it was replaced.

[Caged Love]

I would ideally like to say that the church should be left open for the homeless and less fortunate to come and take refuge and find peace and comfort in the presence of God. However, as the point has been made over and over, it just isn't all that wise of a move in our society today. People simply do not have the same amount of respect as they did 100 years ago (that is not a cut off date by any means). As Bill as made the point, the church has rather pricey things to make it more functional and efficient, but those can, will and do get stolen or damaged. I think that the church has bigger issues to deal with, but that isn't for this thread

[gracioushelper]

You know what's really wrong with the church today? We want to live in our little Christian groups, our cliches. People say that God's dead, or that there aren't any miracles now. This is what I have to say to this, and it does pertain to this topic:
How many times do we go to a doctor rather than pray over a sickness or healing? Sure, we can pray about getting a new 10k guitar for worship purposes, but what about the small things? No, God's too small for those things..
Read "God's Smuggler" and then tell me that we should leave the church closed. It was written in the 50s, so the 100 years of respectablitiy doesn't quite pertain I guess. I know you said that's not a final timeline, but we'll take or leave it as we see fit.
We've taken the thing about reaching out to the godless and turned it into "how comfortable can we make the church for ourselves and still call ourselves an outgoing church?"
One more thing...Jesus preached to over 4,000 and 5,000 people without a $10k PA. You say "well, that's God doing that. But we like to be more modern." or something to that effect. What about the apostles when they baptized ...I don't know the number off the top of my head...all those people? How did they know? God did it.
The reason I run from big churches is that a lot of them no longer preach to the godless or homeless or what have you...they preach to the masses of people who already have Jesus, and because of that, we no longer want to try to leave things to God.
Don't want to part with your gear or want to lose the value on it? Guess what there is an alternative--take all your expensive stuff home and use the cheap stuff. If that means giving up your LP Golden 59, then that's what it means.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by gracioushelper

You know what's really wrong with the church today? We want to live in our little Christian groups, our cliches. People say that God's dead, or that there aren't any miracles now. This is what I have to say to this, and it does pertain to this topic:
How many times do we go to a doctor rather than pray over a sickness or healing? Sure, we can pray about getting a new 10k guitar for worship purposes, but what about the small things? No, God's too small for those things..
Read "God's Smuggler" and then tell me that we should leave the church closed. It was written in the 50s, so the 100 years of respectablitiy doesn't quite pertain I guess. I know you said that's not a final timeline, but we'll take or leave it as we see fit.
We've taken the thing about reaching out to the godless and turned it into "how comfortable can we make the church for ourselves and still call ourselves an outgoing church?"
One more thing...Jesus preached to over 4,000 and 5,000 people without a $10k PA. You say "well, that's God doing that. But we like to be more modern." or something to that effect. What about the apostles when they baptized ...I don't know the number off the top of my head...all those people? How did they know? God did it.
The reason I run from big churches is that a lot of them no longer preach to the godless or homeless or what have you...they preach to the masses of people who already have Jesus, and because of that, we no longer want to try to leave things to God.
Don't want to part with your gear or want to lose the value on it? Guess what there is an alternative--take all your expensive stuff home and use the cheap stuff. If that means giving up your LP Golden 59, then that's what it means.

Leaving buildings unlocked like that creates an environment where the homeless get hurt.

That is why it is a foolish and potentially illegal idea.

Act like folly is a lack of faith, and all you are going to do is be foolish, and end up with rapes and crimes in the building against the homeless. You would not help them, but harm them.

Your disdain for medical professionals is also pretty foolish. Jesus even mentioned in passing that the sick need a doctor.

Some of the churches I have known who did a lot for the homeless were large. One was small. Run from where people are being taken care of if you wish. I have been at churches where if you walked in the door shoeless, smelling terrible in rags, you would be offered a shower, free clothes, and shoes and meals. I won't attend a church that does not have a good homeless ministry. But some of the best are at quite large churches.

[Caged Love]

I did not mean to come across as a stubborn and materialistic person if that is how my comment is viewed. I'm not against praying over sickness or injuries (indeed, quite the opposite: I know of many friends and family members who have experienced them, and even myself). I believe strongly in getting the Christian crowd out of their bubbles and having them do what we were all meant to do: preach Jesus to the unbelievers. In fact, I might be a part of the first drop in center that our town has seen and am trying to figure out a way to get the local Bible college students to be more active in the town instead of hiding in their comfortable dorms and cliches.

Now that much being said, I agree that as a whole, at least from what I've experienced, the church doesn't do enough to reach out to people. They will know we are Christians by our actions and deeds, right? Love carried out? I believe that the church is plagued with inhospitality and it needs to be changed. I have and continue to wrestle with churches being locked, but I understand that you also have to protect the church's property and yeah, the well being of others.

The materialism of the church is an issue, yes, but it doesn't take away from the fact the sound systems and the likes are both convenient and an aid. Do we need Starbucks and that stuff in the church? No! Is that a turn off to me? Yes! But sound systems, instruments, computers, books, etc, are resources that can be used to better proclaim the Gospel. We don't need to cutting edge, but we can't afford to be prehistoric either. I dunno, not answers for you, and I'm not trying to change your view, but I merely try to add another angle. Church needs to change yes, but with it's members and not the institution itself.

[gracioushelper]

I agree with you guys...it's just in southern Idaho (Twin Falls/Filer/Buhl to be exact if you know Idaho) there's not a big crime rate like in other places, so I take it for granted some stuff, and there's only a couple of things that churches do here for homeless. I guess the homeless rate is less here, or people look down on you because you're on welfare because of circumstances out of your control.
And on the other other hand (yeah I know..we don't have three hands), I'm waiting for someone to start a LDS ministry here. That, and freakin meth is everywhere. Someone told me (and I think he would know do to his past, but his past is in the past), that Idaho is the route drug dealers take to deliver their stuff.

[Fandrew]

Originally Posted by gracioushelper

I'm waiting for someone to start a LDS ministry here. That, and freakin meth is everywhere.

Latter-Day Saints? Or did you mean LSD? Actually, unlocked churches in my area are currently being used as meth labs during the week. Seems a new one is discovered every month.